5 ms·

> The British isles aren't floating away to the Atlantic, and the countries will need to continue trading. Europe has been bluntly honest about this. They've s

by vacri 9y ago

> The British isles aren't floating away to the Atlantic, and the countries will need to continue trading. Europe has been bluntly honest about this. They've said that the UK leaving the single market will hurt them, but they're bigger than the UK and the UK will hurt more. They've also pointed out that they can't give the UK a soft landing, as they need to show that leaving the EU is not without consequences; there's a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they? Remember that the EU isn't just about the fat cats in Brussels. It's also about bringing the people together. Europe has historically been the most divisive and warlike continent, with neighbours at each others' throats since records began. You only need to go back to the 90s to see a genocide between europeans who looked the same as each other, and it's within living memory that Europe gave us the worst war of all time and the Holocaust. But 'bendy bananas' is worth it, right?

ptaipale 9y ago
If EU needs to scare its members to show how badly a leaving member would be treated, it's no longer a union of consenting, democratic members. It's not the union that I voted to join, a union that works for the benefit of member countries under guidance of their respective governments for free trade and co-operation; someone started to build an empire and is now mightily pissed off as some people don't want to be in an empire but just have a free trade union of independent countries.
- saimiam 9y ago
  This is naive. Divorces are designed to be painful and marriage was literally a union of people who wanted to be together.
dTal 9y ago
>a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they? That sounds awfully... federalist. If that's the best reasoning they can give for staying, then better to leave.
- baq 9y ago
  The stick is the only thing left if you throw away the carrot.
mike-cardwell 9y ago
> They've also pointed out that they can't give the UK a soft landing, as they need to show that leaving the EU is not without consequences; there's a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they? You've just described an abusive relationship. The EU should make people want to be in it, not afraid of leaving it. Are other EU member states OK with being bullied and threatened in this manner? "Remember that the EU isn't just about the fat cats in Brussels. It's also about bringing the people together. Europe has historically been the most divisive and warlike continent, with neighbours at each others' throats since records began..." The creation of the EU may or may not have helped to bring peace in the beginning, but there's no reason to think it has anything to do with maintaining peace today. We have the UN, NATO, and the unimaginable destructive power of modern weaponary keeping the peace between nations in Europe today. Heck, even the "World shrinking" power of the Internet probably plays a bigger part these days.
- sorokod 9y ago
  "The creation of the EU may or may not have helped to bring peace in the beginning" May or may not? Care to point out the last war between EU members?
  - mike-cardwell 9y ago
    Did you not get as far as the sentence immediately following the one you quoted? I listed a bunch of likely reasons for there being no War between EU countries. Just because the EU happened to exist during a period of peace, does not mean it is the reason for it. There was a little thing called World War 2 that may also have played a part.
  - presidente20 9y ago
    Care to point out the last war between two first world democratic countries?
    - vacri 9y ago
      Given that 'first world' means 'US and its allies', that's clearly a loaded question. There was no war between second-world communist countries either. If you take out the 'first world' bit, then yes, there's been plenty of war between democracies, including World War I: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm
crdoconnor 9y ago
"They've also pointed out that they can't give the UK a soft landing, as they need to show that leaving the EU is not without consequences; there's a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they?" That says something truly horrible about the EU as an institution - that, by the admission of its leaders, what they think will continue to hold it together in the future is threats and intimidation. Presumably this is because they intend to enact more Weimar-style tactics like they did to Greece and Cyprus and they think that the consequent impetus to leave across the EU will only strengthen. The fact that they've been clear, up front and honest about this and May is in denial about it doesn't make it any less reprehensible.
- vacri 9y ago
  The threat isn't one of invasion or punitive payments, it's simply "if you leave, we're not going to give you preferential treatment in trade or politics". It's kind've self-evident - if you choose to leave the union, why should you still get to play with their toys? If a US state seceded from the union (not that it can), the US wouldn't give it sweetheart deals. If you choose to go it alone, then why shouldn't the union say 'business is business', and do the standard thing in business: hardball. Use your size to squeeze the best possible deal for yourself. The UK 'wanted' out, and that's what 'out' gets you.

by vacri 9y ago

ptaipale 9y ago

If EU needs to scare its members to show how badly a leaving member would be treated, it's no longer a union of consenting, democratic members. It's not the union that I voted to join, a union that works for the benefit of member countries under guidance of their respective governments for free trade and co-operation; someone started to build an empire and is now mightily pissed off as some people don't want to be in an empire but just have a free trade union of independent countries.

saimiam 9y ago
This is naive. Divorces are designed to be painful and marriage was literally a union of people who wanted to be together.

dTal 9y ago

>a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they? That sounds awfully... federalist. If that's the best reasoning they can give for staying, then better to leave.

baq 9y ago
The stick is the only thing left if you throw away the carrot.

mike-cardwell 9y ago

> They've also pointed out that they can't give the UK a soft landing, as they need to show that leaving the EU is not without consequences; there's a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they? You've just described an abusive relationship. The EU should make people want to be in it, not afraid of leaving it. Are other EU member states OK with being bullied and threatened in this manner? "Remember that the EU isn't just about the fat cats in Brussels. It's also about bringing the people together. Europe has historically been the most divisive and warlike continent, with neighbours at each others' throats since records began..." The creation of the EU may or may not have helped to bring peace in the beginning, but there's no reason to think it has anything to do with maintaining peace today. We have the UN, NATO, and the unimaginable destructive power of modern weaponary keeping the peace between nations in Europe today. Heck, even the "World shrinking" power of the Internet probably plays a bigger part these days.

sorokod 9y ago
"The creation of the EU may or may not have helped to bring peace in the beginning" May or may not? Care to point out the last war between EU members?
- mike-cardwell 9y ago
  Did you not get as far as the sentence immediately following the one you quoted? I listed a bunch of likely reasons for there being no War between EU countries. Just because the EU happened to exist during a period of peace, does not mean it is the reason for it. There was a little thing called World War 2 that may also have played a part.
- presidente20 9y ago
  Care to point out the last war between two first world democratic countries?
  - vacri 9y ago
    Given that 'first world' means 'US and its allies', that's clearly a loaded question. There was no war between second-world communist countries either. If you take out the 'first world' bit, then yes, there's been plenty of war between democracies, including World War I: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm

crdoconnor 9y ago

"They've also pointed out that they can't give the UK a soft landing, as they need to show that leaving the EU is not without consequences; there's a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they?" That says something truly horrible about the EU as an institution - that, by the admission of its leaders, what they think will continue to hold it together in the future is threats and intimidation. Presumably this is because they intend to enact more Weimar-style tactics like they did to Greece and Cyprus and they think that the consequent impetus to leave across the EU will only strengthen. The fact that they've been clear, up front and honest about this and May is in denial about it doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

vacri 9y ago
The threat isn't one of invasion or punitive payments, it's simply "if you leave, we're not going to give you preferential treatment in trade or politics". It's kind've self-evident - if you choose to leave the union, why should you still get to play with their toys? If a US state seceded from the union (not that it can), the US wouldn't give it sweetheart deals. If you choose to go it alone, then why shouldn't the union say 'business is business', and do the standard thing in business: hardball. Use your size to squeeze the best possible deal for yourself. The UK 'wanted' out, and that's what 'out' gets you.