7 ms·

I think it would be way easier to devolve into an authoritarian government when there's no one to tell you to slow down and rethink it. There's already plenty

I think it would be way easier to devolve into an authoritarian government when there's no one to tell you to slow down and rethink it. There's already plenty of Nazis in Britain. "Britannia rules", "Destroy the fascist/socialist/capitalist EU" (yeah, make up your mind please), "kick out the foreigners". Remove the EU oversight and they can do whatever they want.

beaconstudios 9y ago
are there really that many Nazis in Britain? Sure, the BNP are pretty fascist, but they're such a minority party as to be almost completely irrelevant. Being a nationalist, disliking the EU or being anti-immigration are not traits that make someone a Nazi, and overusing the term diminishes quite how horrific the Nazis were and makes room for actual neo-Nazis to think they are more commonplace than they are, bolstering their confidence. If you want to criticise people for these traits then do so, but using "Nazi" as a snarl word does nothing to back up your point. If you are arguing that there are many actual Nazis in the UK, I'm fairly skeptical but open to believing you if you have the data to back up your position.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  I don't know their actual numbers. Yeah, probably should've said Nationalists, but I wanted to accentuate what the worst case scenario happened. Unlike other countries with nationalism on the rise, the UK can actually do a lot of damage (including to itself).
  - beaconstudios 9y ago
    I don't think nationalism is really tied to Nazism fundamentally. Nazis were very ethnically focused where civic nationalism really isn't - it's about valuing your own country and it's history, and wanting to protect its values. It's basically a synonym with patriotism. It's a big leap to go from nationalism to Nazism.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > It's a big leap to go from nationalism to Nazism. No, it's not. Just look at what happened to the AfD in Germany - first they were just euro-critical nationalists, and not even three years later they have open holocaust denials in the front row (http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik/afd-politiker-designierter-bundestags-alterspraesident-nennt-holocaust-einen--mythos--26199938 http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik/afd-politiker-designi...). Add to this the countless other antisemites, supporters of right-wing terrorists like PEGIDA - Petr Bystron, leader of AfD Bayern, calls for the AfD being a "shield" for Pegida and Identitäre Bewegung, while Heinz Meyer, leader of Pegida München, is under suspicion of founding a terrorist group - the road from nationalism to outright nazism and terrorism is VERY short.
      - beaconstudios 9y ago
        I think Germany is a bit of a special case here, for obvious reasons. Consider that the Republican party in the US is nationalistic, but nothing like the Nazis. The conservative party in the UK is nationalistic (queen and country and all that), but isn't Nazi-like.
        mschuster91 9y ago
        > Consider that the Republican party in the US is nationalistic, but nothing like the Nazis Would you bet on this still being the case in four years? With Bannon (of Breitbart "fame") and friends in the government, plus all the open xenophobia and what I can only summarize as "politics for old white men"... the Republicans have always been right-wing but after 8 years of opposing Obama (including the rise of the Tea Party) they've went very far to the right already. For what it's worth, some of the most vocal Trump supporter base (especially in the Internet, /pol etc.) are outright Nazis. And no, I don't consider smearing swastikas as "for the lulz" but as open worshipping of Nazism instead.
        beaconstudios 9y ago
        yes, I would bet on this being the case in four years. Bannon (and Breitbart in general) are not Nazis, Trump received a larger share of the AA and hispanic vote than Romney (and doesn't appear to me to be a racist, despite near-constant insistence from journalists that he is), and isn't the Tea Party about libertarianism? I wouldn't take anything that comes out of 4chan seriously, as they're known for intentionally riding the line of Poe's law. In the same way that I assume /r9k/ isn't full of obese autistic children who abuse their mothers, I assume /pol/ isn't full of fervent Nazis who hate Jews.
  - johnnyhillbilly 9y ago
    How are we to know which words you mean, and which words you don't mean?
maehwasu 9y ago
This argument for increased centralization has become very tiring, on both sides of the Atlantic. "If you let people form smaller communities, some of those smaller communities might contain NAZIS!!!! Won't somebody think of the children?????"
- prodmerc 9y ago
  The government is thinking about the children. They will know exactly what people think of the children.
hardlianotion 9y ago
I have no sympathy with your argument, which boils down to the "British cannot be trusted to boot out a government they don't approve of", which begs a few questions. EU oversight is overrated (current Hungarian and Polish governments kept in check?) and lacks its own checks and balances (EU parliament is a uniquely weak affair).
- digi_owl 9y ago
  If anything EU rules are making the situation worse. And it would not surprise me if elements within EU welcome the rise of these groups, because as it was said about Mussolini "at least he made the trains run on time". Damn it, just watch the events in Greece a year or so ago.
digi_owl 9y ago
If anything, EU rules and regulations is what is giving those groups fuel to their fire. Leaving EU, thus allowing a debate about these issues without the EU regulations acting as a trump card, may well de-fang them.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  So far, it looks like they'll continue to blame the EU long after the exit. Oh, they're fucking up our trade deals because US/China has preference for larger trading partners, oh, they're a protection racket that doesn't allow us to talk to members separately, oh France/ROI doesn't give a shit about illegals crossing the border, oh Germany is forcing the EU to buy from them instead of the UK (not because the quality is better and taxes are lower, they're just the 4th Reich obviously)...

beaconstudios 9y ago

are there really that many Nazis in Britain? Sure, the BNP are pretty fascist, but they're such a minority party as to be almost completely irrelevant. Being a nationalist, disliking the EU or being anti-immigration are not traits that make someone a Nazi, and overusing the term diminishes quite how horrific the Nazis were and makes room for actual neo-Nazis to think they are more commonplace than they are, bolstering their confidence. If you want to criticise people for these traits then do so, but using "Nazi" as a snarl word does nothing to back up your point. If you are arguing that there are many actual Nazis in the UK, I'm fairly skeptical but open to believing you if you have the data to back up your position.

prodmerc 9y ago
I don't know their actual numbers. Yeah, probably should've said Nationalists, but I wanted to accentuate what the worst case scenario happened. Unlike other countries with nationalism on the rise, the UK can actually do a lot of damage (including to itself).
- beaconstudios 9y ago
  I don't think nationalism is really tied to Nazism fundamentally. Nazis were very ethnically focused where civic nationalism really isn't - it's about valuing your own country and it's history, and wanting to protect its values. It's basically a synonym with patriotism. It's a big leap to go from nationalism to Nazism.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > It's a big leap to go from nationalism to Nazism. No, it's not. Just look at what happened to the AfD in Germany - first they were just euro-critical nationalists, and not even three years later they have open holocaust denials in the front row (http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik/afd-politiker-designierter-bundestags-alterspraesident-nennt-holocaust-einen--mythos--26199938 http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik/afd-politiker-designi...). Add to this the countless other antisemites, supporters of right-wing terrorists like PEGIDA - Petr Bystron, leader of AfD Bayern, calls for the AfD being a "shield" for Pegida and Identitäre Bewegung, while Heinz Meyer, leader of Pegida München, is under suspicion of founding a terrorist group - the road from nationalism to outright nazism and terrorism is VERY short.
    - beaconstudios 9y ago
      I think Germany is a bit of a special case here, for obvious reasons. Consider that the Republican party in the US is nationalistic, but nothing like the Nazis. The conservative party in the UK is nationalistic (queen and country and all that), but isn't Nazi-like.
      - mschuster91 9y ago
        > Consider that the Republican party in the US is nationalistic, but nothing like the Nazis Would you bet on this still being the case in four years? With Bannon (of Breitbart "fame") and friends in the government, plus all the open xenophobia and what I can only summarize as "politics for old white men"... the Republicans have always been right-wing but after 8 years of opposing Obama (including the rise of the Tea Party) they've went very far to the right already. For what it's worth, some of the most vocal Trump supporter base (especially in the Internet, /pol etc.) are outright Nazis. And no, I don't consider smearing swastikas as "for the lulz" but as open worshipping of Nazism instead.
        beaconstudios 9y ago
        yes, I would bet on this being the case in four years. Bannon (and Breitbart in general) are not Nazis, Trump received a larger share of the AA and hispanic vote than Romney (and doesn't appear to me to be a racist, despite near-constant insistence from journalists that he is), and isn't the Tea Party about libertarianism? I wouldn't take anything that comes out of 4chan seriously, as they're known for intentionally riding the line of Poe's law. In the same way that I assume /r9k/ isn't full of obese autistic children who abuse their mothers, I assume /pol/ isn't full of fervent Nazis who hate Jews.
- johnnyhillbilly 9y ago
  How are we to know which words you mean, and which words you don't mean?

maehwasu 9y ago

This argument for increased centralization has become very tiring, on both sides of the Atlantic. "If you let people form smaller communities, some of those smaller communities might contain NAZIS!!!! Won't somebody think of the children?????"

prodmerc 9y ago
The government is thinking about the children. They will know exactly what people think of the children.

hardlianotion 9y ago

I have no sympathy with your argument, which boils down to the "British cannot be trusted to boot out a government they don't approve of", which begs a few questions. EU oversight is overrated (current Hungarian and Polish governments kept in check?) and lacks its own checks and balances (EU parliament is a uniquely weak affair).

digi_owl 9y ago
If anything EU rules are making the situation worse. And it would not surprise me if elements within EU welcome the rise of these groups, because as it was said about Mussolini "at least he made the trains run on time". Damn it, just watch the events in Greece a year or so ago.

digi_owl 9y ago

If anything, EU rules and regulations is what is giving those groups fuel to their fire. Leaving EU, thus allowing a debate about these issues without the EU regulations acting as a trump card, may well de-fang them.

prodmerc 9y ago
So far, it looks like they'll continue to blame the EU long after the exit. Oh, they're fucking up our trade deals because US/China has preference for larger trading partners, oh, they're a protection racket that doesn't allow us to talk to members separately, oh France/ROI doesn't give a shit about illegals crossing the border, oh Germany is forcing the EU to buy from them instead of the UK (not because the quality is better and taxes are lower, they're just the 4th Reich obviously)...