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The US is lucky to have strong and effective regulators like CARB and the EPA. Europe's lack of effective emissions regulation (and enforcement) allowed VW and

The US is lucky to have strong and effective regulators like CARB and the EPA. Europe's lack of effective emissions regulation (and enforcement) allowed VW and others to get away with selling polluting toxic vehicles for years. In fact, despite all that's happened in the US, in Europe they're still getting away with it today.

function_seven 10y ago
> In fact, despite all that's happened in the US, in Europe they're still getting away with it today. Is that a result of weak regulators, or weak regulation? Or both? (Genuine question, I know diesel is much more popular in Europe than in the US)
- ojosilva 10y ago
  Here in Europe all or most of the major carmakers had been infringing the "Euro N" emission protocols set by the EU. The now current Euro 6 is however quite restrictive and is in effect since 2014/2015. Despite Euro 6 being twice as permissive as EPA-standards, diesel cars emissions are actually an order of magnitude higher than most current standards, so if they remain within Euro 6 boundaries that would be great news. Apparently that is the case now for new cars in the market since Sep/2015. NOx wasn't taken too seriously in the EU by member states until recently and many countries were not fining or prosecuting carmakers [1]. This is probably a result of hard-fought car plant concessions each member state has to make to get these valuable blue-collar jobs from going somewhere else. The mindset is changing now due to raised awareness by VW-gate but also the continuous struggle some large cities such as Paris, Madrid, London, Athens and Rome are having to keep smog levels under control [2]. So, in general, we can say the EU, public and cities are putting pressure, but states are still very lenient and reluctant and are seeking long-term exemptions [3]. I believe the EU is too dependent on heavy NOx-emitting diesel cars to take drastic regulatory measures, so diesel is being pushed out by the cities with upcoming taxation and city-limits restrictions. If the trend follows, taxation, and not regulation, will be the NOx deterrent in the coming years [4]. [1] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-238_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-238_en.htm [2] http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/paris-cuts-harmful-no2-exhaust-emissions-by-up-to-40-per-cent-after-banning-cars-for-a-day-a6679686.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/paris-cuts-harmful-... [3] http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21714991-europe-should-follow-america-taking-hard-line-regulating-car-emissions-stop-carmakers http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21714991-europe-should... [4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/11018725/This-diesel-backlash-is-completely-overblown.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/11018725/This-diese...
  - ch4ck 10y ago
    To decrease NOx emissions the engine temperature has to be decreased which is equal to lower engine efficiency. It means more fuel consumption and more COx emissions. When will CO2 obsessed bureaucrats begin to care about fine particles emitted by gasoline direct injection engines?
    - rciorba 10y ago
      In the EU, with Euro 5+6 particulate limits for gasoline engines have been imposed as well. The previous rationale was "no limits are required because particulates are a diesel issue", which is bonkers because if it were so, one could simply apply the same limits to both and the gasoline engines would have passed with flying colours. My guess is heavy lobbying from automakers managed to keep these unregulated for so long, since indeed direct injection (which seems to be the new norm) makes fuel economy better but particulates worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Em...
    - Reason077 10y ago
      To decrease NOx emissions the engine temperature has to be decreased which is equal to lower engine efficiency. There are other ways to reduce NOx emissions, such as selective catalytic reduction (SCR) with urea ("AdBlue") injection. This technology is pretty standard on modern HGVs, but rare on light diesels.
  - Reason077 10y ago
    diesel cars emissions are actually an order of magnitude higher than most current standards, so if they remain within Euro 6 boundaries that would be great news. Apparently that is the case now for new cars in the market since Sep/2015. Unfortunately many (most?) diesel cars being sold today still emit far in excess of the Euro 6 specification in real-world conditions. The EQUA air quality index assigns ratings (A to H) to vehicles based on how they perform in real world conditions. The number of diesel models that are getting G or H grades (indicating they emit at least 12X more NOx than the Euro 6 specification allows) is quite alarming: http://equaindex.com/equa-air-quality-index/ http://equaindex.com/equa-air-quality-index/
- luca_ing 10y ago
  The German government, the traffic minister in particular, are disgracefully downplaying the problem and working hard to water down any new regulations to the point where they don't threaten the status quo. However, cities may well reverse the government's efforts, because they have a duty to limit the (real, measured) inner city pollution. So cheating on the dyno won't help car makers. The downside is that the cities' only regulatory approach is more heavy-handed: things like banning all diesel vehicles on particularly bad days, etc. But it might sour diesels for citizens, so all the lobbying efforts may well have been for naught.
roryisok 10y ago
> The US is lucky to have the EPA For how much longer?
petre 10y ago
But of course. The EU is Germany, France, Holland and some other 25 countries that don't really have a say, now that the UK is out. 40% of Germany's exports are vehicles and a hefty part of them are diesel. So don't be surprised if VW is getting away with it. I am glad they at least got busted in the US.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  Fun facts germany has voted a law to ban all internal combustion engine cars starting in 2030[1], EU is working on a plan to ban all fossil fuel based cars by 2050[2], France has progressively started its own ban initiative in 2016[3], German sales of diesel cars have dropped 19%[4]. These paint a different picture than "getting away with it". [1]: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/237320-germany-votes-to-ban-internal-combustion-engine-cars-by-2030 https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/237320-germany-votes-to-... and http://www.popsci.com/germany-signals-intent-to-ban-internal-combustion-engines http://www.popsci.com/germany-signals-intent-to-ban-internal... [2]: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/28/report-eu-working-to-ban-gas-and-diesel-powered-cars-by-2050/ http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/28/report-eu-working-to-ban-... [3]: http://auto.ndtv.com/news/france-to-ban-diesel-cars-from-next-year-707707 http://auto.ndtv.com/news/france-to-ban-diesel-cars-from-nex... [4]: http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/92203288/German-diesel-car-sales-drop-19-per-cent-lose-market-share http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/92203288/German-diesel-...
dsfyu404ed 10y ago
>The US is lucky to have strong and effective regulators like CARB and the EPA. The EPA isn't exactly an example of efficient bureaucracy but putting CARB on the same level is an insult to the EPA
bigbugbag 10y ago
Please it would be better for the overall discussion and HN quality if you would refrain from posting nonsense. Of course Europe has emissions regulations[1] and cars have to go through an approval process testing these before getting an authorization to hit the markets. The difference is that NOx emission levels are stricter in the US while the CO emission levels are stricter in the EU, effectively making the US market favorable to petrol cars while the EU is more favorable to diesel. The VW defeat device scandal in the US started what's been known as dieselgate in Europe, the investigation that first targeted VW was then applied to all car makers and they pretty much all been found guilty of cheating to pass test while actually polluting way more. As there are different tax rates for different emission levels this sent the car makers into the realm of tax fraud and tax evasion. The EU has launched legal proceedings against 7 countries (Germany, UK, Spain, Luxembourg, Lituania, Czech Republic and Greece) and more may follow for not respecting the 2007 law for approval of new vehicles and for the lack of sanctions delivered or deliverable. EU initiated an investigation which preliminary proceedings unveiled that the cheating was known to a few countries since at least 2010 and that they engaged in attempt to delay adoption of better and stricter tests. Large cities around Europe have enacted bans on diesel cars, second hand sales of diesel cars have fallen by 10% compared to the previous year which is unprecedented. Some diesel models were cancelled and a few carmakers even started pivoting from diesel to hybrid cars. This quick summary is the tip of the iceberg and contrasts deeply with your claim of "despite all that's happened in the US, in Europe they're still getting away with it today." [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

function_seven 10y ago

> In fact, despite all that's happened in the US, in Europe they're still getting away with it today. Is that a result of weak regulators, or weak regulation? Or both? (Genuine question, I know diesel is much more popular in Europe than in the US)

ojosilva 10y ago
Here in Europe all or most of the major carmakers had been infringing the "Euro N" emission protocols set by the EU. The now current Euro 6 is however quite restrictive and is in effect since 2014/2015. Despite Euro 6 being twice as permissive as EPA-standards, diesel cars emissions are actually an order of magnitude higher than most current standards, so if they remain within Euro 6 boundaries that would be great news. Apparently that is the case now for new cars in the market since Sep/2015. NOx wasn't taken too seriously in the EU by member states until recently and many countries were not fining or prosecuting carmakers [1]. This is probably a result of hard-fought car plant concessions each member state has to make to get these valuable blue-collar jobs from going somewhere else. The mindset is changing now due to raised awareness by VW-gate but also the continuous struggle some large cities such as Paris, Madrid, London, Athens and Rome are having to keep smog levels under control [2]. So, in general, we can say the EU, public and cities are putting pressure, but states are still very lenient and reluctant and are seeking long-term exemptions [3]. I believe the EU is too dependent on heavy NOx-emitting diesel cars to take drastic regulatory measures, so diesel is being pushed out by the cities with upcoming taxation and city-limits restrictions. If the trend follows, taxation, and not regulation, will be the NOx deterrent in the coming years [4]. [1] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-238_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-238_en.htm [2] http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/paris-cuts-harmful-no2-exhaust-emissions-by-up-to-40-per-cent-after-banning-cars-for-a-day-a6679686.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/paris-cuts-harmful-... [3] http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21714991-europe-should-follow-america-taking-hard-line-regulating-car-emissions-stop-carmakers http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21714991-europe-should... [4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/11018725/This-diesel-backlash-is-completely-overblown.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/11018725/This-diese...
- ch4ck 10y ago
  To decrease NOx emissions the engine temperature has to be decreased which is equal to lower engine efficiency. It means more fuel consumption and more COx emissions. When will CO2 obsessed bureaucrats begin to care about fine particles emitted by gasoline direct injection engines?
  - rciorba 10y ago
    In the EU, with Euro 5+6 particulate limits for gasoline engines have been imposed as well. The previous rationale was "no limits are required because particulates are a diesel issue", which is bonkers because if it were so, one could simply apply the same limits to both and the gasoline engines would have passed with flying colours. My guess is heavy lobbying from automakers managed to keep these unregulated for so long, since indeed direct injection (which seems to be the new norm) makes fuel economy better but particulates worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Em...
  - Reason077 10y ago
    To decrease NOx emissions the engine temperature has to be decreased which is equal to lower engine efficiency. There are other ways to reduce NOx emissions, such as selective catalytic reduction (SCR) with urea ("AdBlue") injection. This technology is pretty standard on modern HGVs, but rare on light diesels.
- Reason077 10y ago
  diesel cars emissions are actually an order of magnitude higher than most current standards, so if they remain within Euro 6 boundaries that would be great news. Apparently that is the case now for new cars in the market since Sep/2015. Unfortunately many (most?) diesel cars being sold today still emit far in excess of the Euro 6 specification in real-world conditions. The EQUA air quality index assigns ratings (A to H) to vehicles based on how they perform in real world conditions. The number of diesel models that are getting G or H grades (indicating they emit at least 12X more NOx than the Euro 6 specification allows) is quite alarming: http://equaindex.com/equa-air-quality-index/ http://equaindex.com/equa-air-quality-index/
luca_ing 10y ago
The German government, the traffic minister in particular, are disgracefully downplaying the problem and working hard to water down any new regulations to the point where they don't threaten the status quo. However, cities may well reverse the government's efforts, because they have a duty to limit the (real, measured) inner city pollution. So cheating on the dyno won't help car makers. The downside is that the cities' only regulatory approach is more heavy-handed: things like banning all diesel vehicles on particularly bad days, etc. But it might sour diesels for citizens, so all the lobbying efforts may well have been for naught.

roryisok 10y ago

> The US is lucky to have the EPA For how much longer?

petre 10y ago

But of course. The EU is Germany, France, Holland and some other 25 countries that don't really have a say, now that the UK is out. 40% of Germany's exports are vehicles and a hefty part of them are diesel. So don't be surprised if VW is getting away with it. I am glad they at least got busted in the US.

bigbugbag 10y ago
Fun facts germany has voted a law to ban all internal combustion engine cars starting in 2030[1], EU is working on a plan to ban all fossil fuel based cars by 2050[2], France has progressively started its own ban initiative in 2016[3], German sales of diesel cars have dropped 19%[4]. These paint a different picture than "getting away with it". [1]: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/237320-germany-votes-to-ban-internal-combustion-engine-cars-by-2030 https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/237320-germany-votes-to-... and http://www.popsci.com/germany-signals-intent-to-ban-internal-combustion-engines http://www.popsci.com/germany-signals-intent-to-ban-internal... [2]: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/28/report-eu-working-to-ban-gas-and-diesel-powered-cars-by-2050/ http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/28/report-eu-working-to-ban-... [3]: http://auto.ndtv.com/news/france-to-ban-diesel-cars-from-next-year-707707 http://auto.ndtv.com/news/france-to-ban-diesel-cars-from-nex... [4]: http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/92203288/German-diesel-car-sales-drop-19-per-cent-lose-market-share http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/92203288/German-diesel-...

dsfyu404ed 10y ago

>The US is lucky to have strong and effective regulators like CARB and the EPA. The EPA isn't exactly an example of efficient bureaucracy but putting CARB on the same level is an insult to the EPA

bigbugbag 10y ago

Please it would be better for the overall discussion and HN quality if you would refrain from posting nonsense. Of course Europe has emissions regulations[1] and cars have to go through an approval process testing these before getting an authorization to hit the markets. The difference is that NOx emission levels are stricter in the US while the CO emission levels are stricter in the EU, effectively making the US market favorable to petrol cars while the EU is more favorable to diesel. The VW defeat device scandal in the US started what's been known as dieselgate in Europe, the investigation that first targeted VW was then applied to all car makers and they pretty much all been found guilty of cheating to pass test while actually polluting way more. As there are different tax rates for different emission levels this sent the car makers into the realm of tax fraud and tax evasion. The EU has launched legal proceedings against 7 countries (Germany, UK, Spain, Luxembourg, Lituania, Czech Republic and Greece) and more may follow for not respecting the 2007 law for approval of new vehicles and for the lack of sanctions delivered or deliverable. EU initiated an investigation which preliminary proceedings unveiled that the cheating was known to a few countries since at least 2010 and that they engaged in attempt to delay adoption of better and stricter tests. Large cities around Europe have enacted bans on diesel cars, second hand sales of diesel cars have fallen by 10% compared to the previous year which is unprecedented. Some diesel models were cancelled and a few carmakers even started pivoting from diesel to hybrid cars. This quick summary is the tip of the iceberg and contrasts deeply with your claim of "despite all that's happened in the US, in Europe they're still getting away with it today." [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards