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To be clear, Nix isn't haskell. It has its own domain-specific language. The documentation is a total mess, and months into using NixOS, I still don't really un

To be clear, Nix isn't haskell. It has its own domain-specific language. The documentation is a total mess, and months into using NixOS, I still don't really understand it. That being said, NixOS is the best damn OS I have ever used. Period. Installing NixOS is a total breeze. It's magical. 1. Boot live CD 2. Mount partitions 3. Write a simple configuration.nix 4. nixos-install 5. Boot a complete system, and log in with the user you defined in your configuration.nix (with a hashed password and everything). nix-env lets you install packages in your home directory (without root). nix-shell lets you create a special environment with specific packages, etc. and run a shell in that environment. nixos-rebuild [switch test boot] (as root) creates a new system according to your modified configuration.nix. If you use switch, it (re)starts updated/new services all on its own. If you broke your system, just reboot, and pick the second most recent boot entry, and you will be back where you started. TL;DR NixOS is well worth the effort. The benefits far far outweigh the headaches, and there is only room for improvement. You will start with a system that you cannot break!

i336_ 10y ago
Hmm. Alright then, I'll keep it in mind. One question: can I remove systemd? :)
- nagvx 10y ago
  It may be worth mentioning, if you want to avoid systemd, that Guix has a Scheme-based init system called Shepherd: https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/
  - i336_ 10y ago
    Oh TIL, thanks. Nice name :)
- thomastjeffery 10y ago
  AFAIK, NixOS relies heavily on systemd. Any particular reason you don't want it?
  - i336_ 10y ago
    I guess not. I'm just still running Slackware, so I haven't needed to grapple with it just yet - and I'm holding out hoping to find that one other distribution that also doesn't use systemd so I can use that instead. :P I've heard good things about Void Linux, I'll likely have a look at that at some point. On the flip side of the coin, I've kind of accepted that everyone who uses Linux has to put up with systemd now, so I'll accept my fate eventually. It's just that I value constructive and positive communication, I don't like the systemd team's blatant arrogance, and I consider it a corporate abuse of power that nothing has been done to curb or deal with it. (I hope I never have to deal with Red Hat in a business setting. Feathers, sparks, fur... everything would fly, and it wouldn't be pretty.)
    - thomastjeffery 10y ago
      As far as I can tell, the general hatred and fear of systemd is overblown. I have never had an issue with it. In fact, systemctl has been much more consistent for me than init services ever were.
ambrop7 10y ago
Please stop saying the documentation is "total mess" and "absolute shit" because this is far from the truth. There is comprehensive documentation available for Nix[1] and NixOS[2]. There is an online search for packages [3] and NixOS configuration options [4]. Sure the documentation will be incomplete in places but that doesn't make it "absolute shit", I have found it to be very helpful generally. [1] http://nixos.org/nix/manual/ http://nixos.org/nix/manual/ [2] http://nixos.org/nixos/manual/ http://nixos.org/nixos/manual/ [3] http://nixos.org/nixos/packages.html http://nixos.org/nixos/packages.html [4] http://nixos.org/nixos/options.html http://nixos.org/nixos/options.html
- techdragon 10y ago
  Comprehensive is not the same as user friendly, or well paced, or organized in a way that will assist new people learning. I've seen plenty of projects that were exceptionally well documented. Every method and class had inline docstring documentation, every module has a separate module docstring block. 100% PEP 257 compliance was enforced as part of the CI tool chain... helpful but only after I was sufficiently knowledgeable about the way the project was being used to get any benefit from it. The the sheer volume of documentation meant that many people had written extremely terse explanations, often devoid of any of the contextual information that would significantly improve someone's understanding of how the code in question was be used. Point is... The volume of documentation or the percentage of documented features, has no direct bearing on its usefulness to any particular user.
- thomastjeffery 10y ago
  Like I said, after months of using NixOS, I do not understand how to write a simple Nix expression. Where is this explained? I am speaking from experience when I say the documentation is "absolute shit". Most of the useful documentation I have read comes from the deprecated wiki. When I first installed NixOS, I had to read the source code for simple things like defining a user or getting samba set up, and still had to rely on the deprecated outdated wiki. Three current state of documentation for NixOS is spread between the manual, deprecated wiki, and the source code itself. The manual barely shows how to get a simple system working, but as soon as you reach an edge case - which Nix itself is fantastically suited to handle - you have to start digging. In time, documentation for NixOS will be mature and usable, but right now it is severely lacking, moreso than any other aspect.
jnsaff2 10y ago
While I agree with most of your comment and am writing this on my NixOS desktop, installing is a breeze only if you don't want to encrypt your root partition or don't want to use it on a macbook or something that mature OS'es usually do quite nicely out of the box. I have my bookmarked set of gists to guide me through these things and it took me days to get it right the first time. Also nixpkgs are a bit of a mess, you usually get a version of a package someone has bothered creating a PR for. This might be very old or bleeding edge. For specific versions you can be SoL. It is of course fairly easy to have your own .nix of the package and PR's are usually accepted quickly but the repo usually doesn't keep previous versions. And then there is a whole world of pain regarding language specific packages. Python is especially painful for me. It took me ages to find the page which hints at nix-shelling projects but this is a pita and requires a completely new workspace setup that is not compatible with people that don't use Nix. Regardless I love NixOS, but to say this is perfect, not even close.

i336_ 10y ago

Hmm. Alright then, I'll keep it in mind. One question: can I remove systemd? :)

nagvx 10y ago
It may be worth mentioning, if you want to avoid systemd, that Guix has a Scheme-based init system called Shepherd: https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/
- i336_ 10y ago
  Oh TIL, thanks. Nice name :)
thomastjeffery 10y ago
AFAIK, NixOS relies heavily on systemd. Any particular reason you don't want it?
- i336_ 10y ago
  I guess not. I'm just still running Slackware, so I haven't needed to grapple with it just yet - and I'm holding out hoping to find that one other distribution that also doesn't use systemd so I can use that instead. :P I've heard good things about Void Linux, I'll likely have a look at that at some point. On the flip side of the coin, I've kind of accepted that everyone who uses Linux has to put up with systemd now, so I'll accept my fate eventually. It's just that I value constructive and positive communication, I don't like the systemd team's blatant arrogance, and I consider it a corporate abuse of power that nothing has been done to curb or deal with it. (I hope I never have to deal with Red Hat in a business setting. Feathers, sparks, fur... everything would fly, and it wouldn't be pretty.)
  - thomastjeffery 10y ago
    As far as I can tell, the general hatred and fear of systemd is overblown. I have never had an issue with it. In fact, systemctl has been much more consistent for me than init services ever were.

ambrop7 10y ago

Please stop saying the documentation is "total mess" and "absolute shit" because this is far from the truth. There is comprehensive documentation available for Nix[1] and NixOS[2]. There is an online search for packages [3] and NixOS configuration options [4]. Sure the documentation will be incomplete in places but that doesn't make it "absolute shit", I have found it to be very helpful generally. [1] http://nixos.org/nix/manual/ http://nixos.org/nix/manual/ [2] http://nixos.org/nixos/manual/ http://nixos.org/nixos/manual/ [3] http://nixos.org/nixos/packages.html http://nixos.org/nixos/packages.html [4] http://nixos.org/nixos/options.html http://nixos.org/nixos/options.html

techdragon 10y ago
Comprehensive is not the same as user friendly, or well paced, or organized in a way that will assist new people learning. I've seen plenty of projects that were exceptionally well documented. Every method and class had inline docstring documentation, every module has a separate module docstring block. 100% PEP 257 compliance was enforced as part of the CI tool chain... helpful but only after I was sufficiently knowledgeable about the way the project was being used to get any benefit from it. The the sheer volume of documentation meant that many people had written extremely terse explanations, often devoid of any of the contextual information that would significantly improve someone's understanding of how the code in question was be used. Point is... The volume of documentation or the percentage of documented features, has no direct bearing on its usefulness to any particular user.
thomastjeffery 10y ago
Like I said, after months of using NixOS, I do not understand how to write a simple Nix expression. Where is this explained? I am speaking from experience when I say the documentation is "absolute shit". Most of the useful documentation I have read comes from the deprecated wiki. When I first installed NixOS, I had to read the source code for simple things like defining a user or getting samba set up, and still had to rely on the deprecated outdated wiki. Three current state of documentation for NixOS is spread between the manual, deprecated wiki, and the source code itself. The manual barely shows how to get a simple system working, but as soon as you reach an edge case - which Nix itself is fantastically suited to handle - you have to start digging. In time, documentation for NixOS will be mature and usable, but right now it is severely lacking, moreso than any other aspect.

jnsaff2 10y ago

While I agree with most of your comment and am writing this on my NixOS desktop, installing is a breeze only if you don't want to encrypt your root partition or don't want to use it on a macbook or something that mature OS'es usually do quite nicely out of the box. I have my bookmarked set of gists to guide me through these things and it took me days to get it right the first time. Also nixpkgs are a bit of a mess, you usually get a version of a package someone has bothered creating a PR for. This might be very old or bleeding edge. For specific versions you can be SoL. It is of course fairly easy to have your own .nix of the package and PR's are usually accepted quickly but the repo usually doesn't keep previous versions. And then there is a whole world of pain regarding language specific packages. Python is especially painful for me. It took me ages to find the page which hints at nix-shelling projects but this is a pita and requires a completely new workspace setup that is not compatible with people that don't use Nix. Regardless I love NixOS, but to say this is perfect, not even close.