4 ms·

Throwaway, because race is a sensitive topic, and below is a potentially unpopular way to look at things in regards to race (I am not addressing gender in this

Throwaway, because race is a sensitive topic, and below is a potentially unpopular way to look at things in regards to race (I am not addressing gender in this comment). 1. Whites actually do not make up a disproportionate number of the programmers in the US! Whites are 74% of the workforce and 72% of the programmers. 2. Asians do make up a disproportionately high number of the programmers in the US, they are 6% of workforce but 20% of programmers. 3. I'd suggest that programming is a job where intellectual ability (specifically math-type logic) is highly correlated with success. Everything else held equal - on average more intellectual ability will lead to a better programmer. 4. Black Americans have on average significantly lower math skills (measured by the SAT) than white Americans. The factors leading to this are widely debated, but the fact remains that the gap still exists in a big way.[2] Asians have, on average, much better math skills than whites and blacks. 5. This doesn't seem to me primarily a culture issue, it seems like an intellectual ability issue. Conclusion: I am not qualified to say what drives the intellectual ability gap (education, infant diet, genetics, culture, etc). But the fact remains the highest IQ people (and therefore highest IQ groups) will continue to perform the best in jobs where IQ is a big factor for success. [1]https://datausa.io/profile/soc/151131/ https://datausa.io/profile/soc/151131/ [2]I'm using SAT math scores to show this here, which of course have faults, but it's tough to argue they don't show an actual difference. IQ tests show similar results: https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-h...

baddox 9y ago
Number 5 seems like a leap.
- RaceIsSensitive 9y ago
  Do you agree that higher IQ (on average) makes a better programmer, and that as a group asians have higher IQs than blacks? If so, how do you expect blacks (as a group) to have the same number of quality programmers as asians? Again, I am NOT saying this needs to be inherently true in the future, that this is unsolvable, is genetic, etc. I am simply saying that today (on average) 18 year old asians have more intellectual ability than 18 year old blacks - and therefore, I would expect the asians (as a group) to do better in programming today. Maybe in 20 years the IQs of the various race groups will be equal. And if that becomes the case and there is still a gap, then my thesis is disproven. But that is not the case today.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- throwaway4445 9y ago
  Supporting evidence: https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-response-to-the-nytimes-article-on-school-districts-test-scores-and-income/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-r...
malandrew 9y ago
The race numbers make a lot more sense when you look at it in context of local base rates. About 50% of engineers in Silicon Valley are white and about 30% are Asian. That's approximately the same as the demographics of San Francisco, San Mateo and Alameda counties. The other thing to keep in mind is that these three counties do NOT represent the United States. IIRC correctly, for these three counties, approximately 37% of people were born abroad and moved to the United States. Another 35% or so were born in California. Only only 27% or so were born in all the states that aren't California. I would also add that talking about Asians as one group is misleading as well. It's mostly five countries: China, India, Taiwan, Korea and Japan. The reason is that those 5 countries put special emphasis on two important subjects: (1) engineering; and (2) English.
- slang800 9y ago
  > The race numbers make a lot more sense when you look at it in context of local base rates. About 50% of engineers in Silicon Valley are white and about 30% are Asian. That's approximately the same as the demographics of San Francisco, San Mateo and Alameda counties. That probably has more to do with the numbers of people who move to those areas specifically for tech jobs. The demographics you describe did not just occur naturally - they are driven by SV employers hiring from all over the world. According to http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-valley-foreign-born/article/2583195 http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-vall... 37% of the population of Silicon Valley isn't even born in the US, much less the urban areas of California.
calvinbhai 9y ago
"Asians do make up a disproportionately high number" Are you referring to 1st gen Asian Americans? or Anyone from Asia? One reason why Asian numbers tend to be disproportionate, especially w.r.t Indians and Chinese, is that only those with advanced degrees in STEM education (among Indians and Chinese) can get a temp work visa to US. They dont have access to Diversity lottery or direct International Student to Green Card option (get work auth on Green Card before 36 month OPT expires) that people from other countries get. So, if you want to look at diversity numbers, it probably makes sense to consider US born people in the work force, instead of all people in the work force.

baddox 9y ago

Number 5 seems like a leap.

RaceIsSensitive 9y ago
Do you agree that higher IQ (on average) makes a better programmer, and that as a group asians have higher IQs than blacks? If so, how do you expect blacks (as a group) to have the same number of quality programmers as asians? Again, I am NOT saying this needs to be inherently true in the future, that this is unsolvable, is genetic, etc. I am simply saying that today (on average) 18 year old asians have more intellectual ability than 18 year old blacks - and therefore, I would expect the asians (as a group) to do better in programming today. Maybe in 20 years the IQs of the various race groups will be equal. And if that becomes the case and there is still a gap, then my thesis is disproven. But that is not the case today.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway4445 9y ago
Supporting evidence: https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-response-to-the-nytimes-article-on-school-districts-test-scores-and-income/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-r...

malandrew 9y ago

The race numbers make a lot more sense when you look at it in context of local base rates. About 50% of engineers in Silicon Valley are white and about 30% are Asian. That's approximately the same as the demographics of San Francisco, San Mateo and Alameda counties. The other thing to keep in mind is that these three counties do NOT represent the United States. IIRC correctly, for these three counties, approximately 37% of people were born abroad and moved to the United States. Another 35% or so were born in California. Only only 27% or so were born in all the states that aren't California. I would also add that talking about Asians as one group is misleading as well. It's mostly five countries: China, India, Taiwan, Korea and Japan. The reason is that those 5 countries put special emphasis on two important subjects: (1) engineering; and (2) English.

slang800 9y ago
> The race numbers make a lot more sense when you look at it in context of local base rates. About 50% of engineers in Silicon Valley are white and about 30% are Asian. That's approximately the same as the demographics of San Francisco, San Mateo and Alameda counties. That probably has more to do with the numbers of people who move to those areas specifically for tech jobs. The demographics you describe did not just occur naturally - they are driven by SV employers hiring from all over the world. According to http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-valley-foreign-born/article/2583195 http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-vall... 37% of the population of Silicon Valley isn't even born in the US, much less the urban areas of California.

calvinbhai 9y ago

"Asians do make up a disproportionately high number" Are you referring to 1st gen Asian Americans? or Anyone from Asia? One reason why Asian numbers tend to be disproportionate, especially w.r.t Indians and Chinese, is that only those with advanced degrees in STEM education (among Indians and Chinese) can get a temp work visa to US. They dont have access to Diversity lottery or direct International Student to Green Card option (get work auth on Green Card before 36 month OPT expires) that people from other countries get. So, if you want to look at diversity numbers, it probably makes sense to consider US born people in the work force, instead of all people in the work force.