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Measles outbreak rages after anti-vaccine groups target vulnerable community
- nonbel 10y agoI got the historical measles data from project tycho[1] a few years ago, and plotted by week. It looks like this outbreak is right on time: https://i.imgur.com/wVDvo43.png https://i.imgur.com/wVDvo43.png The seasonality here is amazing. [1] http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/data/level1.php http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/data/level1.php
- PeterisP 10y agoIsn't there space for lawsuits - reckless endangerment, medical advice (harmful) without a licence, etc? Or does first amendment override such cases and they can go on undeterred? After all, this is a case where this speech caused direct harm to particular individuals.
- Kenji 10y agoYou cannot remove the burden to think for oneself from people. Fining people who give wrong advice sets a really dangerous precedent. What is wrong? Will we start fining climate change deniers? What about fining people who believe that certain antidepressants are dangerous? Etc. EDIT: I wanna add to this that if you make things government-mandated and force it on people, you only give the conspiracy theorists more reason to be suspicious.
- akytt 10y agoSimple. You endanger yourself - be my guest. You endanger others, you suffer. The key role of government is to represent community interest and not vaccinating your kids is very clearly endangering others.
- tcj_phx 10y agoMeasles is one of the diseases that you only get once, then you're immune for the rest of your life. Some kids are killed by measles, which is why the vaccine is popular - it is difficult to predict which kids will have a difficult case of teh measles.
- baq 10y agoIt's worse. Some kids can't be vaccinated for whatever reasons. They piggyback on others. If you take the herd immunity from their society, you put them in grave danger.
- laughfactory 10y agoPlus, some outbreaks happen even in vaccinated communities. There aren't many people who are totally against vaccines. Most just recognize that hitting kids with the recommended onslaught of vaccines is associated with a higher percentage of kids suddenly mentally handicapped or dead or paralyzed. Vaccines are often beneficial, but they're not risk free.
- easilyBored 10y agoThe key role of government is to represent community interest and not vaccinating your kids is very clearly endangering others. Why hasn't the government made it mandatory then (IMO it should be) ?
- the_cat_kittles 10y agook, lets get rid of the ohsa, epa, fda, building codes in general, traffic laws, etc... "you cannot remove the burden to think for oneself" is a stupidly simple response. people have a finite amount of decision making resources, and there are ways we can help... by enacting laws.
- tcj_phx 10y ago> What about fining people who believe that certain antidepressants are dangerous? Etc. There is no controversy about SSRIs' ability to provoke suicide ideation in people who take these drugs. http://ahrp.org/prozac-revisited-concerns-about-suicides-surface-boston-globe/ http://ahrp.org/prozac-revisited-concerns-about-suicides-sur... Commonly used psychiatric drugs are notorious for worsening patients' conditions.
- Kenji 10y agoAnother clear example of someone who did not comprehend my point, writing a message in disagreement when in fact it is precisely what I meant. Sigh... Interacting with other humans is difficult.
- easilyBored 10y agoPeople should eat read meat No, red meat is bad for you. Which one should we sue? Slippery slope. In the end no one was forced anyone not to vaccinate the kids. If vaccines are made mandatory then the state can fine/jail the parents and do them even if the parents chose not to
- the_cat_kittles 10y agowhat? eating red meat doesn't put other people at risk.
- easilyBored 10y agoOK, I could use another example or a hundred ones, but eating a lot of red meat can cost us money. At e minimum increases our insurance rates or we have to pick up the tab if they can't afford. My point still stands. If it was so ironclad, it would illegal to refuse to vaccinate. Refuse to "care" about your child and you go to jail and lose the child Yet, you can refuse to vaccinate him/her and suffer no consequences. So you have a choice. If I tell you that you do not have to vaccinate, why should I be sued or jailed?
- the_cat_kittles 10y agoi honestly wonder if you are a troll paid to spread FUD, and drive societal wedges.
- easilyBored 10y agoOn HN driving societal wedges? I really don;t understand your comments at all. Let's start fresh: 1. Vaccines apparently are not mandatory. You can vaccinate your child or not. 2. Someone that's telling parents not to vaccinate, shouldn't be going to jail, because he's not doing anything illegal (see point 1). 3. The state should make vaccines mandatory first, which IMO is the correct choice. There's no FUD or anti-vaccine thing, simply saying that as long as vaccines are optional, people should not go to jail for saying don't vaccinate.
- nonbel 10y agoActually, as it says in the current article: "The vaccine is very safe and effective, with two doses being 97 percent effective at preventing infection." Unfortunately, while 97% sounds great, "effectiveness" must be considered in light of the infectiousness of the virus. In this case it appears measles may be so infectious (eg one infected child can sneeze and expose an entire school, so-called "superspreaders"), that vaccination will cause a "honeymoon period" that ends with a gigantic epidemic.[I discussed this earlier here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13656252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13656252] Now we are pretty much stuck with measles vaccination, but I doubt the original program would have been begun if they had today's knowledge. Anyway, when/if this giant measles epidemic happens, that is where you should point your fingers.
- nonbel 10y agoI'd love if someone who disagrees would post why. The references are found in my earlier post (linked to above). The honeymoon period, role of vaccine failure rate vs R0 value in epidemic generation, and herd immunity are all derived from the same general SIR models... So I don't see how you can reject what I am saying while still accepting the herd immunity concept (which is generally accepted).
- gumby 10y agoWakefield lost his license to practice medicine in the UK for his fraudulent "studies" and the academic papers submitted based on them. So he moved to the US. I wonder if, though, he could be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license. Certainly a foreign physician without a US license (or a licensed US physician in a state in which she is not licensed) would be subject to that. As a non-physician (and non-former physician), if I tried propagandizing on this issue I think I'd be safe. But it's not the license that makes you a physician.
- protomyth 10y agosome discussion from an earlier, local newspaper article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14229989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14229989
- AckSyn 10y agoDarwin awards would suffice here if this antivax crap didn't hurt others who were vaccinating properly as people are supposed to.
- cies 10y agoCould you please elaborate how someone not-vaxing who gets sick can hurt a vaxed person? I hear this argument some times but no-one was able to explain how this works.
- nokcha 10y agoVaccines are not 100% effective. A small percentage of those vaccinated do not develop immunity.
- spenvo 10y agoWhat nokcha said, plus: Some people for legitimate health reasons can't get vaxxed, so they depend on others being immune (aka "herd immunity") to stay safe. That model only works if healthy kids get vaxxed
- moosterv 10y agoYou can't get vaccinated before a certain age. If there are unvaccinated people around, spreading the disease, your child has a chance to catch it when they are still vulnerable.
- nonbel 10y agoThis is a myth. The original reason babies are not vaccinated is that they are supposed to be already protected by maternal antibodies, and therefore the vaccine won't work. Nowadays there is a new problem of people spreading the myth that vaccination is known to be dangerous to infants, so it is not politically acceptable to lower the vaccination age. This is even though we know the maternal antibodies of vaccinated mothers wear out sooner than those of earlier generations (who generated them in response to a full on infection). I explained this a number of times in an earlier thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13655795 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13655795 For example here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13656462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13656462
- samangan 10y agoHow can we combat woo-woo of this type on a local level? When I moved out to the bay area from Arkansas, I thought I would be escaping this type of garbage but it is still rampant out here. It just comes in a different form. Here the neighborhood health food stores have entire sections devoted to homepathic "medicines", and I see anti-vaxxer bumper stickers plastered all over town. Events like the "March for Science" that just happened are all good, but I worry that standing up for Science and "reason" is too general and abstract. How can local groups educate people to counteract these movements that have actual damaging effects on our communities? Are there organizations we can donate to that have this type of education as a primary goal?
- ReligiousFlames 10y agoIn the South and midwest, magical thinking (ie church, religion and faith) is given more weight than rationality. In those sort of areas, the pastors and most prominent families have the most influence over communities beliefs, generally. In the Bay Area, social groups tend to form around work colleagues or hobbies. There are some churches, but they're not typically the center of Valley social universes.
- glasz 10y agowhat's the point for all the hate? everybody who got the shot is safe. now you are running around screaming at ppl who didn't? how can one non-vaccinated person endanger vaccinated ppl?
- joncampbelldev 10y agoThey endanger the people for whom the vaccines are not effective (its not a 100% preventative), or people who have weakened immune systems / a medical condition and thus can't have the vaccine. The non-vaccinated person becomes an extra vector for spreading the disease amongst a population.
- glasz 10y agothe theory is that vaccines train the immune system. so, it's not like the virus doesn't exist anymore but the body knows how to fight it. "weak" ppl are endangered anyway.
- joncampbelldev 10y agoVaccinated people are not effective carriers for the disease because their body is properly fighting it. Unlike an infected person.
- SigmundA 10y agoBeyond herd immunity, which everyone should understand, there is the issue of kids not getting vaccinated due to parents choice. Is it ok for parents to deny medical care to a child due to superstition? When is it choice and when is it abuse? Bottom line though the herd immunity issue means its not just your choice, now it affects me and mine as well, that crosses a bright line for me.
- andrewflnr 10y agoWho is profiting from anti-vaccination propaganda, and how? Are they just going for publicity? I know some actually believe it, but people like Wakefield need some sort of motive.
- yuhong 10y agoI have been thinking that probably most likely vaccines can appear to "cause" autism, but only if there is things like leaky gut.
- ReligiousFlames 10y agoAs antivaxxers and MMS folks are irrational child-abusers, they should be investigated by CPS. Worse, antivaxxers put the community at risk by reducing herd immunity. Just like fluoride in water, there should be no exceptions for protective prophylaxis like vaccines. No exclusions for religious magical thinking or affluenza "conditions," only based on medical need where harm would be likely.
- danjc 10y agoHave you ever read the list of side effects of a vaccine?
- ReligiousFlames 10y agoDo you understand how lists of side effects are created?
- bobdole1234 10y agoYou understand the differential of risk right? You've got a 1 in 10 million or so chance of serious adverse reaction to vaccination. You've got a 1 in 10 chance of serious adverse reaction if you're exposed to the virus. You're effectively saying something along the lines of "Do you know how dangerous motorcycle riding is?! We should play russian routlette instead!"