4 ms·

Do you have any basis for these otherwise baseless allegations? Major cities are filled with immigrants and cultures from all over the world, and are the engine

Do you have any basis for these otherwise baseless allegations? Major cities are filled with immigrants and cultures from all over the world, and are the engines of advanced economies. New York is one very successful example; London is another. In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration. > A trickle of immigrants from, for example, east Asia is clearly enriching I don't know what country you are in, but if you are in the West than East Asian nations certainly do not share your 'values'. Visit one of those countries some time. But this comment is outright hateful ethnic stereotyping. One essential Western value is to judge people by their actions individuals, not by the color of their skin, their nationality, their sexual preference, etc. Another is liberty, which doesn't mean liberty to do what someone else happens to like. Every generation of immigrants has the same things said about them: They don't integrate, they speak their own language, they don't share our values, etc. etc. But their kids grow up natives. How sad that you have so little confidence in those values that you don't think they will win over these immigrants just like they've won over every generation of immigrants before them.

majewsky 9y ago
> In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration. Same in Germany. The most persistent protests against immigration are in Saxony, where only 3.0% of the population are foreigners (compared to 9.4% national average). Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/Migrationshintergrund/Tabellen/MigrationshintergrundLaender.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Be... (I'm looking at the columns specifically titled "Foreigner". "German with migration background" includes additional immigrants that gained German citizenship, but also a whole slew of people who were displaced after WW2 when the German borders were redrawn.)
hyperdunc 9y ago
It's necessary to generalize somewhat for the sake of conversation. It should be obvious my comments don't apply to every individual, but to macro-level effects on culture. Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. There is significant compatibility between Eastern and Western cultures, and each has a lot to offer the other. Not really the case with Islamic culture - but perhaps one thing it can unwittingly provide is help us to rediscover the values that made the West great. It's also unfair to compare the current situation with previous cultures that have immigrated. There are no Irish enclaves or no-go zones that I'm aware of. There is plenty of interaction between Chinese and "white" communities. But in the UK and France, the children of Muslim immigrants are MORE radicalized than their parents. Their majority views on abortion, domestic violence, LGBT rights and democracy are abhorent. There's no ignoring this - multiculturalism in this instance is failing. You're kind of right in that, although I do believe in Western liberals values, I currently have little confidence in our collective desire to promote them. In our current confusion about what our values are, we are ripe for exploitation by other inferior cultures. And yes, I said inferior because I'm not a postmodernist or cultural relativist. I may not have all the data, but I'm not afraid to make the value judgement that so many others are.
- hackuser 9y ago
  These are baseless allegations, impossible generalizations, and repetition of lies. There's a reason the parent contains no factual basis - not one citation - for what it says. > inferior cultures This is just ignorant, and against the values you claim to promote. Who are you to say what is ignorant? The ignorance is in the parent comment, which contains knowledge only of vicious stereotypes repeated by others. > Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. A test of "values", however that word is defined (vaguely enough to support whatever the parent wants) and however those particular ones are defined (ditto), has never been a condition. Who are you to outlaw other people's "values"? Must we all share yours, or whichever you approve? I think the parent comment is dangerously anti-Western; should the author be allowed to live in Western countries? (Yes.)
  - hyperdunc 9y ago
    Of course my points are based on generalizations and my value judgement is subjective. We are all ignorant regarding the vast majority of things - the best we can do is draw observations based on the information we have. I am a member of a culture making a value judgement about aspects of another culture that are antithetical to my own. If enough people within my culture agree those aspects are a great danger then collectively we can outlaw them or otherwise oppose them. My main point is that not all values are equally valid. Different values have different results when played out. They affect things like individual freedom, happiness and innovation. If Islam were to become the major culture in the West, how do you think that would affect our lives? Is that something you'd be ok with? If not, then you're making a similar value judgement.
    - hackuser 9y ago
      > Of course my points are based on generalizations and my value judgement is subjective. We are all ignorant regarding the vast majority of things - the best we can do is draw observations based on the information we have. That reasoning is just a lazy excuse for oppressing people with viscous, ignorant stereotypes. The generalizations are not only unnecessary, they are wrong and the foundation of much of the evil humanity does. People are individuals, with their own behaviors, beliefs, actions, etc. and that is what they are responsible for; there are good and bad in every house, on every block, in every town in the world. To imagine that you have any knowledge about people spread across continents is absurd, and to even claim it demonstrates an embrace of ignorance. Again, it is the parent comment's behavior that is the problem. > If enough people within my culture agree those aspects are a great danger then collectively we can outlaw them or otherwise oppose them. No, if you are in a Western country you cannot outlaw humans based on their supposed "culture". It's illegal in most countries, it is antithetical to freedom and other Western values, and we've been there before. Shall we round up the Jews next? Black-skinned people? > I am a member of a culture making a value judgement about aspects of another culture You're not a member of my culture, based on what you say, and the evidence I have is far stronger than the color of your skin or the country where you were born. Can I make value judgements about and ban you? (No.) IMHO, it is the good and peaceful against the hateful, no matter where they are born. > If Islam were to become the major culture in the West ... Is that something you'd be ok with? Absolutely. I want people to follow the religion of their choosing (or none at all, if they prefer); I'm happy for them if they can do that; I will defend their right to do so. That is a fundamental value of Western culture; the freedom of religion is one of the fundamental freedoms in all Western nations. I wish my country would open its door and encourage Muslims to come and live in freedom here, where they will be loved as neighbors, respected as full citizens, and can worship as they wish without fear.

majewsky 9y ago

> In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration. Same in Germany. The most persistent protests against immigration are in Saxony, where only 3.0% of the population are foreigners (compared to 9.4% national average). Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/Migrationshintergrund/Tabellen/MigrationshintergrundLaender.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Be... (I'm looking at the columns specifically titled "Foreigner". "German with migration background" includes additional immigrants that gained German citizenship, but also a whole slew of people who were displaced after WW2 when the German borders were redrawn.)

hyperdunc 9y ago

It's necessary to generalize somewhat for the sake of conversation. It should be obvious my comments don't apply to every individual, but to macro-level effects on culture. Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. There is significant compatibility between Eastern and Western cultures, and each has a lot to offer the other. Not really the case with Islamic culture - but perhaps one thing it can unwittingly provide is help us to rediscover the values that made the West great. It's also unfair to compare the current situation with previous cultures that have immigrated. There are no Irish enclaves or no-go zones that I'm aware of. There is plenty of interaction between Chinese and "white" communities. But in the UK and France, the children of Muslim immigrants are MORE radicalized than their parents. Their majority views on abortion, domestic violence, LGBT rights and democracy are abhorent. There's no ignoring this - multiculturalism in this instance is failing. You're kind of right in that, although I do believe in Western liberals values, I currently have little confidence in our collective desire to promote them. In our current confusion about what our values are, we are ripe for exploitation by other inferior cultures. And yes, I said inferior because I'm not a postmodernist or cultural relativist. I may not have all the data, but I'm not afraid to make the value judgement that so many others are.

hackuser 9y ago
These are baseless allegations, impossible generalizations, and repetition of lies. There's a reason the parent contains no factual basis - not one citation - for what it says. > inferior cultures This is just ignorant, and against the values you claim to promote. Who are you to say what is ignorant? The ignorance is in the parent comment, which contains knowledge only of vicious stereotypes repeated by others. > Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. A test of "values", however that word is defined (vaguely enough to support whatever the parent wants) and however those particular ones are defined (ditto), has never been a condition. Who are you to outlaw other people's "values"? Must we all share yours, or whichever you approve? I think the parent comment is dangerously anti-Western; should the author be allowed to live in Western countries? (Yes.)
- hyperdunc 9y ago
  Of course my points are based on generalizations and my value judgement is subjective. We are all ignorant regarding the vast majority of things - the best we can do is draw observations based on the information we have. I am a member of a culture making a value judgement about aspects of another culture that are antithetical to my own. If enough people within my culture agree those aspects are a great danger then collectively we can outlaw them or otherwise oppose them. My main point is that not all values are equally valid. Different values have different results when played out. They affect things like individual freedom, happiness and innovation. If Islam were to become the major culture in the West, how do you think that would affect our lives? Is that something you'd be ok with? If not, then you're making a similar value judgement.
  - hackuser 9y ago
    > Of course my points are based on generalizations and my value judgement is subjective. We are all ignorant regarding the vast majority of things - the best we can do is draw observations based on the information we have. That reasoning is just a lazy excuse for oppressing people with viscous, ignorant stereotypes. The generalizations are not only unnecessary, they are wrong and the foundation of much of the evil humanity does. People are individuals, with their own behaviors, beliefs, actions, etc. and that is what they are responsible for; there are good and bad in every house, on every block, in every town in the world. To imagine that you have any knowledge about people spread across continents is absurd, and to even claim it demonstrates an embrace of ignorance. Again, it is the parent comment's behavior that is the problem. > If enough people within my culture agree those aspects are a great danger then collectively we can outlaw them or otherwise oppose them. No, if you are in a Western country you cannot outlaw humans based on their supposed "culture". It's illegal in most countries, it is antithetical to freedom and other Western values, and we've been there before. Shall we round up the Jews next? Black-skinned people? > I am a member of a culture making a value judgement about aspects of another culture You're not a member of my culture, based on what you say, and the evidence I have is far stronger than the color of your skin or the country where you were born. Can I make value judgements about and ban you? (No.) IMHO, it is the good and peaceful against the hateful, no matter where they are born. > If Islam were to become the major culture in the West ... Is that something you'd be ok with? Absolutely. I want people to follow the religion of their choosing (or none at all, if they prefer); I'm happy for them if they can do that; I will defend their right to do so. That is a fundamental value of Western culture; the freedom of religion is one of the fundamental freedoms in all Western nations. I wish my country would open its door and encourage Muslims to come and live in freedom here, where they will be loved as neighbors, respected as full citizens, and can worship as they wish without fear.