3 ms·

Why Can't the Left Win?

8 points by stingrae 9y ago

okdana 9y ago
>Reflecting on what he called “the woke identity,” Freddie DeBoer observed a tendency among some leftists to forcefully reject the work of persuasion.... “A fundamental, structural impediment to liberal political victory is that their preferred kind of moral engagement necessarily limits the number of adherents they can win....” The American conflation of 'liberal' with 'leftist' is infuriating. Republicans have twisted the discourse surrounding these concepts so artfully that even many liberals earnestly believe that they're the same thing — that support for legalised cannabis or simply higher taxes makes them 'far left', that vague lip service given to the most milquetoast variety of feminism is 'radical', that subsidised university tuition is 'socialism', &c. Conversely, it's not uncommon to hear (in the context of recent university protests for example) communists and anarchists being referred to as 'liberals'. It's politically ignorant nonsense and i think it's illustrative of the way that conservatives in the US control the parameters of any given issue. And i feel like that should be one of the biggest factors in any discussion of the prospects for 'the left'.
- Jabanga 9y ago
  Forced income redistribution is leftist. Someone promoting taxing people to pay for other people's tuition is indeed promoting a leftist policy.
  - okdana 9y ago
    By that definition there isn't a main-stream political party in the entire Western world that isn't leftist, because they all support 'forced income redistribution' to some degree. In the United States it's Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, all three of which are enshrined in both parties' official platforms.
    - Jabanga 9y ago
      Yes they all support some degree of leftist policy. Some support more leftism than others.
mirimir 9y ago
> ... from the left, right, and center ... If we're talking about baseball, sure. But about politics? The terminology is worse than useless. I mean, projecting some N-dimensional space on one dimension? So for example, my values map on left, right and center, for various issues.
sillysaurus3 9y ago
I think the left is going to have a hard time winning because of mindsets like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277253 What most of society doesn't seem to understand is that returning veterans are quite anxious about getting out and this makes them very vulnerable. They are like the Trump voters willing to throw their lot in with whomever tells them "it will be okay", regardless of how unscrupulous and incompetent those promise-makers are. I know it's unpopular to treat Trump voters as rational, capable adults with different beliefs, but it's a necessary precursor to winning their vote. And anyone who isn't doing this is actively harming the left's chances at victory.
Jabanga 9y ago
I think the left is winning. A biological man recently won a woman's weightlifting contest. That would have been unthinkable 10 years ago. For 50 years the left has been saying they're losing, while every decade has a larger share of economic activity made illegal, and a larger percentage of GDP spent on social welfare. And it doesn't matter if it's Democrats in power or Republicans. The new Republican healthcare bill for example makes US healthcare more centrally managed and redistributive than it was 10 years ago. And despite the GOP passing a healthcare bill that the GOP of 10 years ago would have denounced as socialism, these are the kinds of headlines appearing in the media: "Yes, House Republicans, the heartless health-care vote will define you" ..from the Washington Post. The ideological tenets of socialism are being steadily more entrenched as mainstream values. All someone has to do is look at the ten planks of the Communist Manifesto to see how many ideas that were once radically left have become normalized: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m...

8 points by stingrae 9y ago

>Reflecting on what he called “the woke identity,” Freddie DeBoer observed a tendency among some leftists to forcefully reject the work of persuasion.... “A fundamental, structural impediment to liberal political victory is that their preferred kind of moral engagement necessarily limits the number of adherents they can win....” The American conflation of 'liberal' with 'leftist' is infuriating. Republicans have twisted the discourse surrounding these concepts so artfully that even many liberals earnestly believe that they're the same thing — that support for legalised cannabis or simply higher taxes makes them 'far left', that vague lip service given to the most milquetoast variety of feminism is 'radical', that subsidised university tuition is 'socialism', &c. Conversely, it's not uncommon to hear (in the context of recent university protests for example) communists and anarchists being referred to as 'liberals'. It's politically ignorant nonsense and i think it's illustrative of the way that conservatives in the US control the parameters of any given issue. And i feel like that should be one of the biggest factors in any discussion of the prospects for 'the left'.

Jabanga 9y ago
Forced income redistribution is leftist. Someone promoting taxing people to pay for other people's tuition is indeed promoting a leftist policy.
- okdana 9y ago
  By that definition there isn't a main-stream political party in the entire Western world that isn't leftist, because they all support 'forced income redistribution' to some degree. In the United States it's Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, all three of which are enshrined in both parties' official platforms.
  - Jabanga 9y ago
    Yes they all support some degree of leftist policy. Some support more leftism than others.

mirimir 9y ago

> ... from the left, right, and center ... If we're talking about baseball, sure. But about politics? The terminology is worse than useless. I mean, projecting some N-dimensional space on one dimension? So for example, my values map on left, right and center, for various issues.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

I think the left is going to have a hard time winning because of mindsets like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277253 What most of society doesn't seem to understand is that returning veterans are quite anxious about getting out and this makes them very vulnerable. They are like the Trump voters willing to throw their lot in with whomever tells them "it will be okay", regardless of how unscrupulous and incompetent those promise-makers are. I know it's unpopular to treat Trump voters as rational, capable adults with different beliefs, but it's a necessary precursor to winning their vote. And anyone who isn't doing this is actively harming the left's chances at victory.

Jabanga 9y ago

I think the left is winning. A biological man recently won a woman's weightlifting contest. That would have been unthinkable 10 years ago. For 50 years the left has been saying they're losing, while every decade has a larger share of economic activity made illegal, and a larger percentage of GDP spent on social welfare. And it doesn't matter if it's Democrats in power or Republicans. The new Republican healthcare bill for example makes US healthcare more centrally managed and redistributive than it was 10 years ago. And despite the GOP passing a healthcare bill that the GOP of 10 years ago would have denounced as socialism, these are the kinds of headlines appearing in the media: "Yes, House Republicans, the heartless health-care vote will define you" ..from the Washington Post. The ideological tenets of socialism are being steadily more entrenched as mainstream values. All someone has to do is look at the ten planks of the Communist Manifesto to see how many ideas that were once radically left have become normalized: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m...