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It didn't read as a dog-whistle to me. It's a scenario that's happening across Europe. The mass import of different cultures is a real problem because it erod

It didn't read as a dog-whistle to me. It's a scenario that's happening across Europe. The mass import of different cultures is a real problem because it erodes trust and cohesion within communities affected. To put it bluntly, multiculturalism isn't all its cracked up to be. A trickle of immigrants from, for example, east Asia is clearly enriching. The same cannot be said for a mass influx from a culture that holds opposing values. Continuing to deny this will only result in more Brexit-like events.

hackuser 9y ago
Do you have any basis for these otherwise baseless allegations? Major cities are filled with immigrants and cultures from all over the world, and are the engines of advanced economies. New York is one very successful example; London is another. In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration. > A trickle of immigrants from, for example, east Asia is clearly enriching I don't know what country you are in, but if you are in the West than East Asian nations certainly do not share your 'values'. Visit one of those countries some time. But this comment is outright hateful ethnic stereotyping. One essential Western value is to judge people by their actions individuals, not by the color of their skin, their nationality, their sexual preference, etc. Another is liberty, which doesn't mean liberty to do what someone else happens to like. Every generation of immigrants has the same things said about them: They don't integrate, they speak their own language, they don't share our values, etc. etc. But their kids grow up natives. How sad that you have so little confidence in those values that you don't think they will win over these immigrants just like they've won over every generation of immigrants before them.
- majewsky 9y ago
  > In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration. Same in Germany. The most persistent protests against immigration are in Saxony, where only 3.0% of the population are foreigners (compared to 9.4% national average). Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/Migrationshintergrund/Tabellen/MigrationshintergrundLaender.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Be... (I'm looking at the columns specifically titled "Foreigner". "German with migration background" includes additional immigrants that gained German citizenship, but also a whole slew of people who were displaced after WW2 when the German borders were redrawn.)
- hyperdunc 9y ago
  It's necessary to generalize somewhat for the sake of conversation. It should be obvious my comments don't apply to every individual, but to macro-level effects on culture. Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. There is significant compatibility between Eastern and Western cultures, and each has a lot to offer the other. Not really the case with Islamic culture - but perhaps one thing it can unwittingly provide is help us to rediscover the values that made the West great. It's also unfair to compare the current situation with previous cultures that have immigrated. There are no Irish enclaves or no-go zones that I'm aware of. There is plenty of interaction between Chinese and "white" communities. But in the UK and France, the children of Muslim immigrants are MORE radicalized than their parents. Their majority views on abortion, domestic violence, LGBT rights and democracy are abhorent. There's no ignoring this - multiculturalism in this instance is failing. You're kind of right in that, although I do believe in Western liberals values, I currently have little confidence in our collective desire to promote them. In our current confusion about what our values are, we are ripe for exploitation by other inferior cultures. And yes, I said inferior because I'm not a postmodernist or cultural relativist. I may not have all the data, but I'm not afraid to make the value judgement that so many others are.
  - hackuser 9y ago
    These are baseless allegations, impossible generalizations, and repetition of lies. There's a reason the parent contains no factual basis - not one citation - for what it says. > inferior cultures This is just ignorant, and against the values you claim to promote. Who are you to say what is ignorant? The ignorance is in the parent comment, which contains knowledge only of vicious stereotypes repeated by others. > Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. A test of "values", however that word is defined (vaguely enough to support whatever the parent wants) and however those particular ones are defined (ditto), has never been a condition. Who are you to outlaw other people's "values"? Must we all share yours, or whichever you approve? I think the parent comment is dangerously anti-Western; should the author be allowed to live in Western countries? (Yes.)
    - 9y ago
sangnoir 9y ago
> The mass import of different cultures is a real problem because it erodes trust and cohesion within communities affected This is not a new idea: the US said this about the Irish in the early 20th century, but now everyone is proud of their Irish heritage and loves St. Patrick's day - Irish culture has been fully embraced. The same thing happened a little while later for the Italians, and then for the Asians (which you've called 'enriching', a contemporary attitude if I've ever heard one). Pizza, Asian food, St. Paddy's and Tacos are quintessentially American: American culture is multiculturalism.
- hyperdunc 9y ago
  Multiculturalism only works if the contained cultures respect each other, share enough common ground and obey the same laws. Please consider my reply to another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14283767 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14283767
notahacker 9y ago
When the story is about the non far-right candidate being hacked and somebody decides to use that as a pretext for a rant about the ills of mass migration, it's not even as subtle as a dog whistle...
- hyperdunc 9y ago
  Non far-right? Lets be clear about what these candidates are. Macron is a neoliberal globalist elitist. Economically, he may be more right than Le Pen. Le Pen is a populist authoritarian nationalist. Certainly not far-right.

hackuser 9y ago

Do you have any basis for these otherwise baseless allegations? Major cities are filled with immigrants and cultures from all over the world, and are the engines of advanced economies. New York is one very successful example; London is another. In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration. > A trickle of immigrants from, for example, east Asia is clearly enriching I don't know what country you are in, but if you are in the West than East Asian nations certainly do not share your 'values'. Visit one of those countries some time. But this comment is outright hateful ethnic stereotyping. One essential Western value is to judge people by their actions individuals, not by the color of their skin, their nationality, their sexual preference, etc. Another is liberty, which doesn't mean liberty to do what someone else happens to like. Every generation of immigrants has the same things said about them: They don't integrate, they speak their own language, they don't share our values, etc. etc. But their kids grow up natives. How sad that you have so little confidence in those values that you don't think they will win over these immigrants just like they've won over every generation of immigrants before them.

majewsky 9y ago
> In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration. Same in Germany. The most persistent protests against immigration are in Saxony, where only 3.0% of the population are foreigners (compared to 9.4% national average). Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/Migrationshintergrund/Tabellen/MigrationshintergrundLaender.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Be... (I'm looking at the columns specifically titled "Foreigner". "German with migration background" includes additional immigrants that gained German citizenship, but also a whole slew of people who were displaced after WW2 when the German borders were redrawn.)
hyperdunc 9y ago
It's necessary to generalize somewhat for the sake of conversation. It should be obvious my comments don't apply to every individual, but to macro-level effects on culture. Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. There is significant compatibility between Eastern and Western cultures, and each has a lot to offer the other. Not really the case with Islamic culture - but perhaps one thing it can unwittingly provide is help us to rediscover the values that made the West great. It's also unfair to compare the current situation with previous cultures that have immigrated. There are no Irish enclaves or no-go zones that I'm aware of. There is plenty of interaction between Chinese and "white" communities. But in the UK and France, the children of Muslim immigrants are MORE radicalized than their parents. Their majority views on abortion, domestic violence, LGBT rights and democracy are abhorent. There's no ignoring this - multiculturalism in this instance is failing. You're kind of right in that, although I do believe in Western liberals values, I currently have little confidence in our collective desire to promote them. In our current confusion about what our values are, we are ripe for exploitation by other inferior cultures. And yes, I said inferior because I'm not a postmodernist or cultural relativist. I may not have all the data, but I'm not afraid to make the value judgement that so many others are.
- hackuser 9y ago
  These are baseless allegations, impossible generalizations, and repetition of lies. There's a reason the parent contains no factual basis - not one citation - for what it says. > inferior cultures This is just ignorant, and against the values you claim to promote. Who are you to say what is ignorant? The ignorance is in the parent comment, which contains knowledge only of vicious stereotypes repeated by others. > Any individual who embraces western liberal values should be welcome, regardless of where they're from. A test of "values", however that word is defined (vaguely enough to support whatever the parent wants) and however those particular ones are defined (ditto), has never been a condition. Who are you to outlaw other people's "values"? Must we all share yours, or whichever you approve? I think the parent comment is dangerously anti-Western; should the author be allowed to live in Western countries? (Yes.)
  - 9y ago

sangnoir 9y ago

> The mass import of different cultures is a real problem because it erodes trust and cohesion within communities affected This is not a new idea: the US said this about the Irish in the early 20th century, but now everyone is proud of their Irish heritage and loves St. Patrick's day - Irish culture has been fully embraced. The same thing happened a little while later for the Italians, and then for the Asians (which you've called 'enriching', a contemporary attitude if I've ever heard one). Pizza, Asian food, St. Paddy's and Tacos are quintessentially American: American culture is multiculturalism.

hyperdunc 9y ago
Multiculturalism only works if the contained cultures respect each other, share enough common ground and obey the same laws. Please consider my reply to another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14283767 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14283767

notahacker 9y ago

When the story is about the non far-right candidate being hacked and somebody decides to use that as a pretext for a rant about the ills of mass migration, it's not even as subtle as a dog whistle...

hyperdunc 9y ago
Non far-right? Lets be clear about what these candidates are. Macron is a neoliberal globalist elitist. Economically, he may be more right than Le Pen. Le Pen is a populist authoritarian nationalist. Certainly not far-right.