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Your developers are smart - they don't want to shake the tree. They know that even though you say you want constructive criticism, there's a good chance you'll

Your developers are smart - they don't want to shake the tree. They know that even though you say you want constructive criticism, there's a good chance you'll resent them for giving it to you, so they take the safe road. Ask the ones who leave, but wait 5 months until they're comfortably settled into new employment. You can bet they'll give it to you straight, but you might not like that either.

hdhzy 10y ago
Good idea. I personally had given feedback every time I left a company and the reaction was always either no improvement to slight adversity. So naturally I stopped giving feedback. Maybe instead of simple feedback it would be worth to just task the developer with improving something that they will see as problematic (kind of 20% time but for improvement).
- user5994461 10y ago
  Rules #1: Never talk when you leave. Just leave. Whatever you say, it can only make it worse.
  - azdle 10y ago
    I disagree. Now, let me start by saying I don't intend for this to be a suggestion for everyone in every situation, I just want to suggest that sometimes it can make things better. I left my job three months ago, but I had actually tried to quit about 6 months earlier, instead I ended up switching positions. None of the problems I was having really ended up getting resolved after the my first attempt to quit, which is why I ended up actually leaving after giving it 6 months. But from what I've heard from friends still there, since I left they've actually been trying to fix things. For the last month or so, my boss knew I was again debating leaving and we ended up having at least one conversation a week about things that were wrong. For me personally, it was great, I didn't have that stupid voice in the back of my head telling me to downplay everything. I think he appreciated how candid I was too. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone should always do this. I worked for a company with ~150 people and I was the 12th hire, with my boss coming in shortly after me. However, saying you should never do it isn't true either.
  - jstanley 10y ago
    I tried to quit my job a few weeks ago. My boss suggested I could stay and work on something completely different, part of what I do in my free time, but getting paid for it. Much happier now, it's worked out well for both of us.
- tormeh 10y ago
  Well, you're leaving, so everything you say will be viewed in that light. People should be objective about feedback, but they aren't. The way they see it, you're telling them they suck on your way out the door, and they probably want to answer "fuck you too".
  - hdhzy 10y ago
    Well I never left because someone "sucked" (didn't have X, Y, Z or didn't do A, B or C) and the feedback was generally actionable sometimes even with references to literature and research. But if people have problem with feedback why are they asking for it?
    - fwefwwfe 9y ago
      It's company policy and it gives them an opportunity to think of a positive spin for things before someone else hears about the complaints first, say though glassdoor or some other means.
  - bbcbasic 9y ago
    I agree and moreover why risk losing a reference? When older references may be non contactable that's a risk that many including me wouldn't take.
cookiecaper 10y ago
Yeah, one of the most important things to learn is that people do not mean what they say. Frequently, they don't realize they don't mean what they say. It takes a lot of work and a good grounding in psychology to start to get some useful introspection on even our own motives, let alone the motives of others. It's easy to say "Yes, I want harsh criticism!" Indulge this a few times and see what happens. I have been fortunate to meet one or two people who mean it and roll with it. However, most people who say this will end up reacting violently anyway, thinking of some reason why that specific thing you said was out of bounds. Never trust someone to act reasonably based on their promise to do so. The issue of "leadership blindness", where you get tuned out because everyone you around is so interested in pleasing you and never wants to give you adverse information, is serious and real. It's one of the most important things for a company's leader to circumvent, and sadly, not very many corporate leaders have the humility to do so. I experienced this even when I was just barely up the ladder. As soon as one starts climbing up (that is, gets any subordinates), the dynamic instantly changes. To OP: give up on asking directly. It's not going to help. Any information you get in direct reply will be useless or worse. Do not expect to get it straight. Assume that there's a bug in your employees' log function that is causing only INFO level messages to get logged even though you asked for DEBUG. You need to think of other ways to get the data you need to run and evaluate your company objectively, knowing that `log()` is never going to work.
- tomcam 9y ago
  That is a bleak answer. Upvoted because despite what the idealist in me says, I believe it to be largely true.
  - bbcbasic 9y ago
    I think the remedy for a company is to slowly change the culture from command and control to directed collaboration. Why do I need a team lead to apportion work if I am a senior developer? Probably I don't. Maybe the team can burn through work and collaborate on decisions. Then criticism becomes normal and non offensive and can be used constructively to make the team better because you are convincing peers not overlords.
HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
Instead of asking new hires, he should be asking the people who are leaving. They have nothing to lose.

hdhzy 10y ago

Good idea. I personally had given feedback every time I left a company and the reaction was always either no improvement to slight adversity. So naturally I stopped giving feedback. Maybe instead of simple feedback it would be worth to just task the developer with improving something that they will see as problematic (kind of 20% time but for improvement).

user5994461 10y ago
Rules #1: Never talk when you leave. Just leave. Whatever you say, it can only make it worse.
- azdle 10y ago
  I disagree. Now, let me start by saying I don't intend for this to be a suggestion for everyone in every situation, I just want to suggest that sometimes it can make things better. I left my job three months ago, but I had actually tried to quit about 6 months earlier, instead I ended up switching positions. None of the problems I was having really ended up getting resolved after the my first attempt to quit, which is why I ended up actually leaving after giving it 6 months. But from what I've heard from friends still there, since I left they've actually been trying to fix things. For the last month or so, my boss knew I was again debating leaving and we ended up having at least one conversation a week about things that were wrong. For me personally, it was great, I didn't have that stupid voice in the back of my head telling me to downplay everything. I think he appreciated how candid I was too. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone should always do this. I worked for a company with ~150 people and I was the 12th hire, with my boss coming in shortly after me. However, saying you should never do it isn't true either.
- jstanley 10y ago
  I tried to quit my job a few weeks ago. My boss suggested I could stay and work on something completely different, part of what I do in my free time, but getting paid for it. Much happier now, it's worked out well for both of us.
tormeh 10y ago
Well, you're leaving, so everything you say will be viewed in that light. People should be objective about feedback, but they aren't. The way they see it, you're telling them they suck on your way out the door, and they probably want to answer "fuck you too".
- hdhzy 10y ago
  Well I never left because someone "sucked" (didn't have X, Y, Z or didn't do A, B or C) and the feedback was generally actionable sometimes even with references to literature and research. But if people have problem with feedback why are they asking for it?
  - fwefwwfe 9y ago
    It's company policy and it gives them an opportunity to think of a positive spin for things before someone else hears about the complaints first, say though glassdoor or some other means.
- bbcbasic 9y ago
  I agree and moreover why risk losing a reference? When older references may be non contactable that's a risk that many including me wouldn't take.

cookiecaper 10y ago

Yeah, one of the most important things to learn is that people do not mean what they say. Frequently, they don't realize they don't mean what they say. It takes a lot of work and a good grounding in psychology to start to get some useful introspection on even our own motives, let alone the motives of others. It's easy to say "Yes, I want harsh criticism!" Indulge this a few times and see what happens. I have been fortunate to meet one or two people who mean it and roll with it. However, most people who say this will end up reacting violently anyway, thinking of some reason why that specific thing you said was out of bounds. Never trust someone to act reasonably based on their promise to do so. The issue of "leadership blindness", where you get tuned out because everyone you around is so interested in pleasing you and never wants to give you adverse information, is serious and real. It's one of the most important things for a company's leader to circumvent, and sadly, not very many corporate leaders have the humility to do so. I experienced this even when I was just barely up the ladder. As soon as one starts climbing up (that is, gets any subordinates), the dynamic instantly changes. To OP: give up on asking directly. It's not going to help. Any information you get in direct reply will be useless or worse. Do not expect to get it straight. Assume that there's a bug in your employees' log function that is causing only INFO level messages to get logged even though you asked for DEBUG. You need to think of other ways to get the data you need to run and evaluate your company objectively, knowing that `log()` is never going to work.

tomcam 9y ago
That is a bleak answer. Upvoted because despite what the idealist in me says, I believe it to be largely true.
- bbcbasic 9y ago
  I think the remedy for a company is to slowly change the culture from command and control to directed collaboration. Why do I need a team lead to apportion work if I am a senior developer? Probably I don't. Maybe the team can burn through work and collaborate on decisions. Then criticism becomes normal and non offensive and can be used constructively to make the team better because you are convincing peers not overlords.

HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago

Instead of asking new hires, he should be asking the people who are leaving. They have nothing to lose.