6 ms·

Having the benefit of hindsight in looking at outside interventions elsewhere (Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc ) I think that maybe the best thing would be for al

Having the benefit of hindsight in looking at outside interventions elsewhere (Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc ) I think that maybe the best thing would be for all other countries (including China) to stop interfering in North korea. It's not possible of course

lionhearted 16y ago
I agree in theory, but I'm reminded of a quote by Trotsky - "You might not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." North Korea is on China's borders, thousands of people each month sneak into China from North Korea, and their crazopathic government is next door to China no matter what. I think China being very mildly pro-NK is a case of "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." North Korea is probably the biggest potential threat to China if relations were to break down between them.
- MarkBook 16y ago
  This is something that always puzzles me. How come it's accepted as a given that countries cannot seal their borders. The Soviet Bloc were pretty good at it EDIT also the border between north and south korea is pretty tight
  - DrJokepu 16y ago
    The Eastern Block wasn't that good at all at sealing borders. Many millions of people have emigrated to the West from Eastern Europe during the Cold War.
    - MarkBook 16y ago
      Millions I have a problem in believing, certainly once the iron curtain proper was put in place.
      - eru 16y ago
        You don't need to resort to believing--either way. Just look at some statistics. You have all the web at your disposal, I suppose.
        Mark_Book 16y ago
        Wikipaedia says 13.3 million crossed east to west europe between 1950 and 1990, 75% of this movement was sanctioned so that makes for 4 million irregular crossings or about 100,000 per year. Currently the US is estimated to have 11.5 million illegal immigrants with about 0.5 million entering each year
        eru 16y ago
        Thanks for actually doing the work I was only bitching about!
  - gaius 16y ago
    The UK is an island but our borders have more holes than a colander. Illegal immigration and people smuggling are a huge issue here, and a political hot potato. The problem must be 10x worse for countries with land borders.
    - MarkBook 16y ago
      I don't buy this. What's lacking is the political will to secure the borders of the UK. If the UK is so porous then how come Germany wasn't able to stroll over in 1940. People have been told that's it's impossible to keep out illegals and through repetition and the evidence of their eyes have come to believe it. Meanwhile in 'nice areas' the only illegals visible are the domestic servants who would otherwise be unaffordable. If countries are as helpless to prevent immigration as is generally implied then we might as well dismantle borders altogether.
      - rmc 16y ago
        > If the UK is so porous then how come Germany wasn't able to stroll over in 1940. A few thousand unorganised migrant workers who are trying to smuggle themselves in with no more than a suitcase each and try to hide in the corners of soceity when they get there is quite different from a massive uniformed army with tanks and trucks who then try to take over the running of the government when they get here. Also the army was legally allowed and ordered to shoot the Germans who were trying to come over, whereas they is not the political will to shoot migrant workers.
        fgf 16y ago
        He's not talking about an invasion but of infiltration by saboteurs and spys..
        Mark_Book 16y ago
        It's not the will to shoot illegals that's needed, simply the will to implement the law as it stands by putting in the necessary resources into border policing and deporting those illegals who are discovered. Almost all illegals into the UK entered as paying passengers, ie they needed a ticket. If commercial carriers can police their passageways why can't the government police the doorways to those routes?
- swombat 16y ago
  Forget about war. How about food? The documentary mentions that North Korea survives thanks to food from the World Food Programme. Cut all imports, and I wonder how long the régime would last when even the army starts starving to death. Of course, it's possible millions of people would die in the process.
  - istari 16y ago
    You're forgetting one of the basic laws of diplomacy: don't try to starve out someone with thousands of artillery tubes pointed at your capital.
DrJokepu 16y ago
I agree, this is something Koreans (both North and South) will have to fight for themselves (only "fighting" metaphorically hopefully). Korea has a history of being oppressed by various other nations and the official ideology of North Korea ("Juche") is basically, amongst other things, saying "f*ck you" to the rest of the world. People are actually serious about it, it's not just some propaganda. Clearly, in a situation like this, foreign intervention is possibly not the best way forward.
VMG 16y ago
What about Germany and Kosovo?

lionhearted 16y ago

I agree in theory, but I'm reminded of a quote by Trotsky - "You might not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." North Korea is on China's borders, thousands of people each month sneak into China from North Korea, and their crazopathic government is next door to China no matter what. I think China being very mildly pro-NK is a case of "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." North Korea is probably the biggest potential threat to China if relations were to break down between them.

MarkBook 16y ago
This is something that always puzzles me. How come it's accepted as a given that countries cannot seal their borders. The Soviet Bloc were pretty good at it EDIT also the border between north and south korea is pretty tight
- DrJokepu 16y ago
  The Eastern Block wasn't that good at all at sealing borders. Many millions of people have emigrated to the West from Eastern Europe during the Cold War.
  - MarkBook 16y ago
    Millions I have a problem in believing, certainly once the iron curtain proper was put in place.
    - eru 16y ago
      You don't need to resort to believing--either way. Just look at some statistics. You have all the web at your disposal, I suppose.
      - Mark_Book 16y ago
        Wikipaedia says 13.3 million crossed east to west europe between 1950 and 1990, 75% of this movement was sanctioned so that makes for 4 million irregular crossings or about 100,000 per year. Currently the US is estimated to have 11.5 million illegal immigrants with about 0.5 million entering each year
        eru 16y ago
        Thanks for actually doing the work I was only bitching about!
- gaius 16y ago
  The UK is an island but our borders have more holes than a colander. Illegal immigration and people smuggling are a huge issue here, and a political hot potato. The problem must be 10x worse for countries with land borders.
  - MarkBook 16y ago
    I don't buy this. What's lacking is the political will to secure the borders of the UK. If the UK is so porous then how come Germany wasn't able to stroll over in 1940. People have been told that's it's impossible to keep out illegals and through repetition and the evidence of their eyes have come to believe it. Meanwhile in 'nice areas' the only illegals visible are the domestic servants who would otherwise be unaffordable. If countries are as helpless to prevent immigration as is generally implied then we might as well dismantle borders altogether.
    - rmc 16y ago
      > If the UK is so porous then how come Germany wasn't able to stroll over in 1940. A few thousand unorganised migrant workers who are trying to smuggle themselves in with no more than a suitcase each and try to hide in the corners of soceity when they get there is quite different from a massive uniformed army with tanks and trucks who then try to take over the running of the government when they get here. Also the army was legally allowed and ordered to shoot the Germans who were trying to come over, whereas they is not the political will to shoot migrant workers.
      - fgf 16y ago
        He's not talking about an invasion but of infiltration by saboteurs and spys..
      - Mark_Book 16y ago
        It's not the will to shoot illegals that's needed, simply the will to implement the law as it stands by putting in the necessary resources into border policing and deporting those illegals who are discovered. Almost all illegals into the UK entered as paying passengers, ie they needed a ticket. If commercial carriers can police their passageways why can't the government police the doorways to those routes?
swombat 16y ago
Forget about war. How about food? The documentary mentions that North Korea survives thanks to food from the World Food Programme. Cut all imports, and I wonder how long the régime would last when even the army starts starving to death. Of course, it's possible millions of people would die in the process.
- istari 16y ago
  You're forgetting one of the basic laws of diplomacy: don't try to starve out someone with thousands of artillery tubes pointed at your capital.

DrJokepu 16y ago

I agree, this is something Koreans (both North and South) will have to fight for themselves (only "fighting" metaphorically hopefully). Korea has a history of being oppressed by various other nations and the official ideology of North Korea ("Juche") is basically, amongst other things, saying "f*ck you" to the rest of the world. People are actually serious about it, it's not just some propaganda. Clearly, in a situation like this, foreign intervention is possibly not the best way forward.

VMG 16y ago

What about Germany and Kosovo?