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Bs. I do quite fine with high school. The biggest advantage those growing up in today's environment have going for them is that everyone else their age is lazy.

by fleitz 16y ago

Bs. I do quite fine with high school. The biggest advantage those growing up in today's environment have going for them is that everyone else their age is lazy. You can do far better today with the same work ethic of the previous generation. It is an educational arms race, however in any arms race there is plenty of money to be made selling arms. Fuck unpaid internships, get a job at a small company where results are noticed. When you see something going wrong step in and fix it. I started my career in programming putting together a simple scheduling app in php. I didn't ask permission I went and coded it at home and brought it in one day and demo'd it to my supervisor. After that they didn't want me doing tech support any more and wanted me solving all sorts of other problems instead. Whining about education is a crutch used by those who don't want to fill out resumes or otherwise work. Generally those people feel that now that they have an education all they need to do is sit back and wait for a cushy job to knock on their door. Before one gets a degree they should type that degrees name into a craigslist job board and see what comes up, if nothing comes up then one should not expect to get a job as a result. I wanted to add one more piece of advice, when you decide what you want to do, find the industry where that job is the "profit center" and also in the "profit center" pick the job no one else wants to do. Yeah, sometimes it actually really sucks, but usually there is just a little learning curve, and then it's easy. Never tell them this. You're now indispensable, likable, and if you saved your money properly you also have negotiating power. This means that you're likely to be offered a raise, if you ask for one accepted, and if they decline have the means to make them give it to you or find something else, and surprisingly at the other company no one wants to do X either. Pro Tip: If you've just bought something major on credit (car, house, etc), your boss probably knows about it, this means that you will NOT get your raise for the thing you bought that you can't afford. This is also why if you talk about cars or houses with your boss he may convince you to buy something you don't need. The people who get raises are those who don't need it.

patio11 16y ago
Fuck unpaid internships I disagree with the language but heartily approve of the message. Do. Not. Work. For. Free. For-profit corporations can pay you wages -- that is what they are for. This goes triply for everyone here, since most of you have skills that the market actually needs rather than the collection of non-skill represented by your typical coffee gopher trying to break into publishing. However, people expect engineers to be congenitally incapable of negotiation and to work for free because they love their jobs, and they'll tell you that this is not merely permissable but morally praiseworthy and a good thing for your career. People who tell you this are lying to you. Do not listen to them, even if they are folks you otherwise respect, even if they are telling you that their OSS-using corporations are more morally deserving than e.g. Microsoft or Oracle.
- jackowayed 16y ago
  > For-profit corporations can pay you wages -- that is what they are for. The worst example I've seen related to this is my friend (business major) who almost didn't take a paid internship because she had already agreed to do an unpaid internship and would feel bad abandoning the company. I had to explain to her how bad of an idea it is to be loyal to a company that doesn't even value her enough to pay her.
- gte910h 16y ago
  Oh I hate unpaid internships. However of late, lots of people have been pushing them around and people are getting bold because the labor department isn't enforcing the crap out of the law in this area.
tsally 16y ago
Bs. I do quite fine with high school. Personal anecdotes aren't valid pieces of evidence... The biggest advantage those growing up in today's environment have going for them is that everyone else their age is lazy. You can do far better today with the same work ethic of the previous generation. ... and neither are broad generalizations. In fact, the college admission process directly contradicts your misguided conceptions [1]. (Whether young people are working hard towards the right goal is another debate, but they are working hard.) You're going to have to do much better if you want to argue that an extensively researched and reported global trend (degree inflation) doesn't exist [2,3,4,5]. Enough of this hurr-durr-pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps-because-that's-what-I-did bullshit. People who point out the issues with education are hard working people who have valid concerns. They aren't "whining". [1] http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/a-few-more-colleges-report-low-admission-rates/ http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/a-few-more-col... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/12/education/12masters.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/12/education/12masters.html [3] http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/worklife/05/27/cb.degree.not.enough.job/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/worklife/05/27/cb.degree.not.... [4] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/world_agenda/article7002822.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/world_agenda/art... [5] http://www.insidehighered.com/views/sloane/sloane20 http://www.insidehighered.com/views/sloane/sloane20
- fleitz 16y ago
  Actually anecdotes are evidence. They don't prove correlation or causation in themselves but they are evidence. Also none of your "extensively researched" evidence proves causation. At best you can point to correlation. What I'm saying is that hard work and intelligent choices have far more of an effect on your life than "a degree". Unfortunately those types of things aren't easily compilable. Universities are selling a solution to a self created and self perpetuating problem. When everyone has a masters the answer will be to get a phd and when everyone has a phd a new degree with be made. In 100 years you can expect baskin robins university with 31 degrees. I don't doubt that education is valuable but you can get it much cheaper than by going to university. Would you be skeptical of "research" from the cigarette manufacturers that said tobacco is good for you and that tailor mades are the best way to get it? Color me unconvinced that more schooling is the answer. It could well be that a degree is the best way to spend a half million dollars but I don't think it is.
gte910h 16y ago
I was completely talking about the average case. Do you honestly think the modern world can be navigated just as well by someone with drive and a 4 year degree as someone with an equal amount of drive and the training from the 4 year degree on average? The world isn't designed for you. It's designed for all people, and for the vast majority of people, they need a much greater amount of training and education to get the same life their parents had by their age.

by fleitz 16y ago

patio11 16y ago

Fuck unpaid internships I disagree with the language but heartily approve of the message. Do. Not. Work. For. Free. For-profit corporations can pay you wages -- that is what they are for. This goes triply for everyone here, since most of you have skills that the market actually needs rather than the collection of non-skill represented by your typical coffee gopher trying to break into publishing. However, people expect engineers to be congenitally incapable of negotiation and to work for free because they love their jobs, and they'll tell you that this is not merely permissable but morally praiseworthy and a good thing for your career. People who tell you this are lying to you. Do not listen to them, even if they are folks you otherwise respect, even if they are telling you that their OSS-using corporations are more morally deserving than e.g. Microsoft or Oracle.

jackowayed 16y ago
> For-profit corporations can pay you wages -- that is what they are for. The worst example I've seen related to this is my friend (business major) who almost didn't take a paid internship because she had already agreed to do an unpaid internship and would feel bad abandoning the company. I had to explain to her how bad of an idea it is to be loyal to a company that doesn't even value her enough to pay her.
gte910h 16y ago
Oh I hate unpaid internships. However of late, lots of people have been pushing them around and people are getting bold because the labor department isn't enforcing the crap out of the law in this area.

tsally 16y ago

Bs. I do quite fine with high school. Personal anecdotes aren't valid pieces of evidence... The biggest advantage those growing up in today's environment have going for them is that everyone else their age is lazy. You can do far better today with the same work ethic of the previous generation. ... and neither are broad generalizations. In fact, the college admission process directly contradicts your misguided conceptions [1]. (Whether young people are working hard towards the right goal is another debate, but they are working hard.) You're going to have to do much better if you want to argue that an extensively researched and reported global trend (degree inflation) doesn't exist [2,3,4,5]. Enough of this hurr-durr-pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps-because-that's-what-I-did bullshit. People who point out the issues with education are hard working people who have valid concerns. They aren't "whining". [1] http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/a-few-more-colleges-report-low-admission-rates/ http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/a-few-more-col... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/12/education/12masters.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/12/education/12masters.html [3] http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/worklife/05/27/cb.degree.not.enough.job/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/worklife/05/27/cb.degree.not.... [4] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/world_agenda/article7002822.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/world_agenda/art... [5] http://www.insidehighered.com/views/sloane/sloane20 http://www.insidehighered.com/views/sloane/sloane20

fleitz 16y ago
Actually anecdotes are evidence. They don't prove correlation or causation in themselves but they are evidence. Also none of your "extensively researched" evidence proves causation. At best you can point to correlation. What I'm saying is that hard work and intelligent choices have far more of an effect on your life than "a degree". Unfortunately those types of things aren't easily compilable. Universities are selling a solution to a self created and self perpetuating problem. When everyone has a masters the answer will be to get a phd and when everyone has a phd a new degree with be made. In 100 years you can expect baskin robins university with 31 degrees. I don't doubt that education is valuable but you can get it much cheaper than by going to university. Would you be skeptical of "research" from the cigarette manufacturers that said tobacco is good for you and that tailor mades are the best way to get it? Color me unconvinced that more schooling is the answer. It could well be that a degree is the best way to spend a half million dollars but I don't think it is.

gte910h 16y ago

I was completely talking about the average case. Do you honestly think the modern world can be navigated just as well by someone with drive and a 4 year degree as someone with an equal amount of drive and the training from the 4 year degree on average? The world isn't designed for you. It's designed for all people, and for the vast majority of people, they need a much greater amount of training and education to get the same life their parents had by their age.