7 ms·

*as How is money laundering a "fake" crime?

by nappy 9y ago

MichaelGG 9y ago
I have money for whatever reason. I pump it through a business of mine, paying taxes, etc. Normally this is totally fine - I'm not using it to commit fraud against investors, I'm paying taxes, etc. The important thing is that no one is being harmed, it's just me seeking some privacy in my own finances, and perhaps losing some money for the privilege (I may be spending post-tax money). Or perhaps it's simpler than that. I have a bunch of money in geographic location A, and I want to spend it in B, so I put it in a suitcase and walk/fly/drive on over. Now LE comes along and says, gee whiz, our jobs are really hard having to catch criminals doing criminal stuff. You know, let's make it illegal to use your money as you like, to have any sort of privacy in your transactions. Tada, now they can just go after people for moving money around. The sad thing is, they've won. They've made "money laundering" sound like something serious, instead of totally made up to make their jobs easy, and people seem to support such laws. Maybe they'll call encryption "data laundering", "bit smuggling", "safety obstruction" or something catchy to get people against it.
- openasocket 9y ago
  Money laundering is lying on federal documents, claiming your business is making more than it really is. And there's no reason to do it unless you've gotten the money illegally: otherwise you could just report to the IRS why you really have that money. And you suggest people are/should be able to lie on federal forms in the name of privacy?
  - mcbits 9y ago
    If it is known (proven beyond a reasonable doubt) that the money was acquired illegally, then mission accomplished. Convict them of the actual crime. If not, then the "crime" of moving money around in unconventional ways does seem pretty bogus - a way to punish someone on a hunch without the hassle of actually producing evidence. Much like when police search for drugs and fail to find anything, so they just take any money they find instead.
    - openasocket 9y ago
      Often the actual laundering process is done by a third party who takes a cut. A middleman who provides money laundering as a service to criminals. Under your scheme that person wouldn't be committing a crime and could not be prosecuted. But that's beside the point. The crime isn't "moving money around in unconventional ways," it's lying to the IRS and other government agencies. It's signing your name on all those tax documents that say "under penalty of perjury" after filling them in with false information.
      - mcbits 9y ago
        If someone commits perjury, convict them of perjury. There's no need to invent yet another crime. But I suspect it's not perjury. If a laundromat has an extra $500k of income and reports it as income, paying all relevant taxes, then so be it. If there is proof that the money came from criminal activity, then convict someone of that crime. Otherwise it's just a hunch.
        openasocket 9y ago
        Making it a crime serves as a deterrent for illegal activity. So when you prove the money came from criminal activity you can convict them for the criminal activity and the money laundering.
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        This seems similar to how we punish some crimes worse if you thought something mean about the person you committed the crime against.
        memmcgee 9y ago
        One of the purposes of making money laundering a crime is that it makes it possible to investigate other crimes. You know the mob is making money and you know they're moving that money around somehow. Making money laundering a crime gives investigators a place to start their investigations. If they think a laundromat is a front for the mob, they can prove that by counting how many people are using it and comparing that to how much money they're putting in the bank at the end of the month. They can then get a warrant to investigate further. A judge shouldn't issue a warrant on a laundromat for investigating a murder when there's no clear thread that connects the two. A judge could however issue a warrant to investigate money laundering when you know the laundromat's books don't add up.
  - MichaelGG 9y ago
    What lie is required? You buy 1000 pizzas a day from your pizza store, with cash you already have. You report all that income to the IRS. Where's the lie? Edit: Keep in mind if your original money you evaded taxes on, that's already a crime. As is committing crimes, if that's how you got the money. "Laundering" is just a non-crime used to make LE's job easy, expanding power and reducing privacy. AML and KYC laws are an affront to liberty.
    - openasocket 9y ago
      > You buy 1000 pizzas a day from your pizza store, with cash you already have. You report all that income to the IRS. So, assuming that money isn't illicitly gotten, I'm pretty sure that's not money laundering.
      - petre 9y ago
        It's not my job to prove the money is acquired legally, it's the investigator's job to prove otherwise.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        eropple 9y ago
        You don't have to prove that that money is obtained legally. You do have to refrain from knowingly transacting with illegally obtained money. If a reasonable person would be aware that the money you are handling is not acquired legally, you can be found culpable. You can say it's "not your job" all you like--if you are operating in the United States, you are not correct and it would go very poorly for you to try.
        memmcgee 9y ago
        Yeah but in order to do that they need a warrant. If you're moving around money like that, it's very likely you got that money illegally. I'm no fan of the police, but sometimes following the paper trail is the only place to start an investigation. I'd rather the police be able to get a legitimate warrant to investigate something than have them operate in lesd than legal ways.
- smt88 9y ago
  I don't think you understand what money laundering is.
petre 9y ago
A lot of usual situations like moving cash in excess of 10k euros without declaring it have been recently classified as attempts to launder money. In fact this is just how borrow happy states are hunting for taxes nowadays. Eliminating cash is their target. That way they can just take the money out of your account. Just look at India or other socialist states like Sweeden trying to eliminate cash while trumpeting that it's used for "money laundering".
- chrismcb 9y ago
  Typically it is illegal to not report a transaction over 10k. That is the law that was broken, not "money laundering" of course if you move a lot of money around just under the 10k, that is legal unless you knowingly break it up so that you don't have to report it.
  - bogositosius 9y ago
    In what jurisdiction do I have to report transferring more than $10,000? That's an obligation of the bank, not individuals using banks. (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?)
    - petre 9y ago
      No, the bank doesn't need to report it, they have transaction records on file. It's specifically about moving cash in excess of 10k euros. It's the same i nthe US, you have to report cash payments in excess to $10k to the IRS. http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-controls_en http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-contro... In Greece they have even extended this to other comodities such as gold and you have to report it regardless if you're moving it or not, otherwise they can freely confiscate it. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare-cash-under-mattress-jewelry-and-precious-stones http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare...
    - piaste 9y ago
      > (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?) No, but transactions over X € must be conducted using a traceable medium - cheques, credit cards, bank transfer, sometimes Bitcoin. X varies by country. Conducting transactions above X € in cash doesn't automatically constitute criminal money laundering, of course, it just gets fined.

*as How is money laundering a "fake" crime?

by nappy 9y ago

*as How is money laundering a "fake" crime?

I have money for whatever reason. I pump it through a business of mine, paying taxes, etc. Normally this is totally fine - I'm not using it to commit fraud against investors, I'm paying taxes, etc. The important thing is that no one is being harmed, it's just me seeking some privacy in my own finances, and perhaps losing some money for the privilege (I may be spending post-tax money). Or perhaps it's simpler than that. I have a bunch of money in geographic location A, and I want to spend it in B, so I put it in a suitcase and walk/fly/drive on over. Now LE comes along and says, gee whiz, our jobs are really hard having to catch criminals doing criminal stuff. You know, let's make it illegal to use your money as you like, to have any sort of privacy in your transactions. Tada, now they can just go after people for moving money around. The sad thing is, they've won. They've made "money laundering" sound like something serious, instead of totally made up to make their jobs easy, and people seem to support such laws. Maybe they'll call encryption "data laundering", "bit smuggling", "safety obstruction" or something catchy to get people against it.

openasocket 9y ago
Money laundering is lying on federal documents, claiming your business is making more than it really is. And there's no reason to do it unless you've gotten the money illegally: otherwise you could just report to the IRS why you really have that money. And you suggest people are/should be able to lie on federal forms in the name of privacy?
- mcbits 9y ago
  If it is known (proven beyond a reasonable doubt) that the money was acquired illegally, then mission accomplished. Convict them of the actual crime. If not, then the "crime" of moving money around in unconventional ways does seem pretty bogus - a way to punish someone on a hunch without the hassle of actually producing evidence. Much like when police search for drugs and fail to find anything, so they just take any money they find instead.
  - openasocket 9y ago
    Often the actual laundering process is done by a third party who takes a cut. A middleman who provides money laundering as a service to criminals. Under your scheme that person wouldn't be committing a crime and could not be prosecuted. But that's beside the point. The crime isn't "moving money around in unconventional ways," it's lying to the IRS and other government agencies. It's signing your name on all those tax documents that say "under penalty of perjury" after filling them in with false information.
    - mcbits 9y ago
      If someone commits perjury, convict them of perjury. There's no need to invent yet another crime. But I suspect it's not perjury. If a laundromat has an extra $500k of income and reports it as income, paying all relevant taxes, then so be it. If there is proof that the money came from criminal activity, then convict someone of that crime. Otherwise it's just a hunch.
      - openasocket 9y ago
        Making it a crime serves as a deterrent for illegal activity. So when you prove the money came from criminal activity you can convict them for the criminal activity and the money laundering.
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        This seems similar to how we punish some crimes worse if you thought something mean about the person you committed the crime against.
      - memmcgee 9y ago
        One of the purposes of making money laundering a crime is that it makes it possible to investigate other crimes. You know the mob is making money and you know they're moving that money around somehow. Making money laundering a crime gives investigators a place to start their investigations. If they think a laundromat is a front for the mob, they can prove that by counting how many people are using it and comparing that to how much money they're putting in the bank at the end of the month. They can then get a warrant to investigate further. A judge shouldn't issue a warrant on a laundromat for investigating a murder when there's no clear thread that connects the two. A judge could however issue a warrant to investigate money laundering when you know the laundromat's books don't add up.
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  What lie is required? You buy 1000 pizzas a day from your pizza store, with cash you already have. You report all that income to the IRS. Where's the lie? Edit: Keep in mind if your original money you evaded taxes on, that's already a crime. As is committing crimes, if that's how you got the money. "Laundering" is just a non-crime used to make LE's job easy, expanding power and reducing privacy. AML and KYC laws are an affront to liberty.
  - openasocket 9y ago
    > You buy 1000 pizzas a day from your pizza store, with cash you already have. You report all that income to the IRS. So, assuming that money isn't illicitly gotten, I'm pretty sure that's not money laundering.
    - petre 9y ago
      It's not my job to prove the money is acquired legally, it's the investigator's job to prove otherwise.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - eropple 9y ago
        You don't have to prove that that money is obtained legally. You do have to refrain from knowingly transacting with illegally obtained money. If a reasonable person would be aware that the money you are handling is not acquired legally, you can be found culpable. You can say it's "not your job" all you like--if you are operating in the United States, you are not correct and it would go very poorly for you to try.
      - memmcgee 9y ago
        Yeah but in order to do that they need a warrant. If you're moving around money like that, it's very likely you got that money illegally. I'm no fan of the police, but sometimes following the paper trail is the only place to start an investigation. I'd rather the police be able to get a legitimate warrant to investigate something than have them operate in lesd than legal ways.
smt88 9y ago
I don't think you understand what money laundering is.

petre 9y ago

A lot of usual situations like moving cash in excess of 10k euros without declaring it have been recently classified as attempts to launder money. In fact this is just how borrow happy states are hunting for taxes nowadays. Eliminating cash is their target. That way they can just take the money out of your account. Just look at India or other socialist states like Sweeden trying to eliminate cash while trumpeting that it's used for "money laundering".

chrismcb 9y ago
Typically it is illegal to not report a transaction over 10k. That is the law that was broken, not "money laundering" of course if you move a lot of money around just under the 10k, that is legal unless you knowingly break it up so that you don't have to report it.
- bogositosius 9y ago
  In what jurisdiction do I have to report transferring more than $10,000? That's an obligation of the bank, not individuals using banks. (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?)
  - petre 9y ago
    No, the bank doesn't need to report it, they have transaction records on file. It's specifically about moving cash in excess of 10k euros. It's the same i nthe US, you have to report cash payments in excess to $10k to the IRS. http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-controls_en http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-contro... In Greece they have even extended this to other comodities such as gold and you have to report it regardless if you're moving it or not, otherwise they can freely confiscate it. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare-cash-under-mattress-jewelry-and-precious-stones http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare...
  - piaste 9y ago
    > (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?) No, but transactions over X € must be conducted using a traceable medium - cheques, credit cards, bank transfer, sometimes Bitcoin. X varies by country. Conducting transactions above X € in cash doesn't automatically constitute criminal money laundering, of course, it just gets fined.