5 ms·

That sounds as fake of a crime as money laundering. Certainly misleading officials that haven't identified as being on official business should not be a crime.

derefr 9y ago
The point wasn't who you ended up misleading, but that your intent was to mislead investigators in particular. Throwing a brick off the top of a building into a crowded street is attempted murder, even if it doesn't hit anybody, because clearly you had intent to drop the brick on a person's head.
- chx 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
nappy 9y ago
*as How is money laundering a "fake" crime?
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  I have money for whatever reason. I pump it through a business of mine, paying taxes, etc. Normally this is totally fine - I'm not using it to commit fraud against investors, I'm paying taxes, etc. The important thing is that no one is being harmed, it's just me seeking some privacy in my own finances, and perhaps losing some money for the privilege (I may be spending post-tax money). Or perhaps it's simpler than that. I have a bunch of money in geographic location A, and I want to spend it in B, so I put it in a suitcase and walk/fly/drive on over. Now LE comes along and says, gee whiz, our jobs are really hard having to catch criminals doing criminal stuff. You know, let's make it illegal to use your money as you like, to have any sort of privacy in your transactions. Tada, now they can just go after people for moving money around. The sad thing is, they've won. They've made "money laundering" sound like something serious, instead of totally made up to make their jobs easy, and people seem to support such laws. Maybe they'll call encryption "data laundering", "bit smuggling", "safety obstruction" or something catchy to get people against it.
  - openasocket 9y ago
    Money laundering is lying on federal documents, claiming your business is making more than it really is. And there's no reason to do it unless you've gotten the money illegally: otherwise you could just report to the IRS why you really have that money. And you suggest people are/should be able to lie on federal forms in the name of privacy?
    - mcbits 9y ago
      If it is known (proven beyond a reasonable doubt) that the money was acquired illegally, then mission accomplished. Convict them of the actual crime. If not, then the "crime" of moving money around in unconventional ways does seem pretty bogus - a way to punish someone on a hunch without the hassle of actually producing evidence. Much like when police search for drugs and fail to find anything, so they just take any money they find instead.
      - openasocket 9y ago
        Often the actual laundering process is done by a third party who takes a cut. A middleman who provides money laundering as a service to criminals. Under your scheme that person wouldn't be committing a crime and could not be prosecuted. But that's beside the point. The crime isn't "moving money around in unconventional ways," it's lying to the IRS and other government agencies. It's signing your name on all those tax documents that say "under penalty of perjury" after filling them in with false information.
        mcbits 9y ago
        If someone commits perjury, convict them of perjury. There's no need to invent yet another crime. But I suspect it's not perjury. If a laundromat has an extra $500k of income and reports it as income, paying all relevant taxes, then so be it. If there is proof that the money came from criminal activity, then convict someone of that crime. Otherwise it's just a hunch.
        9y ago
- petre 9y ago
  A lot of usual situations like moving cash in excess of 10k euros without declaring it have been recently classified as attempts to launder money. In fact this is just how borrow happy states are hunting for taxes nowadays. Eliminating cash is their target. That way they can just take the money out of your account. Just look at India or other socialist states like Sweeden trying to eliminate cash while trumpeting that it's used for "money laundering".
  - chrismcb 9y ago
    Typically it is illegal to not report a transaction over 10k. That is the law that was broken, not "money laundering" of course if you move a lot of money around just under the 10k, that is legal unless you knowingly break it up so that you don't have to report it.
    - bogositosius 9y ago
      In what jurisdiction do I have to report transferring more than $10,000? That's an obligation of the bank, not individuals using banks. (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?)
      - petre 9y ago
        No, the bank doesn't need to report it, they have transaction records on file. It's specifically about moving cash in excess of 10k euros. It's the same i nthe US, you have to report cash payments in excess to $10k to the IRS. http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-controls_en http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-contro... In Greece they have even extended this to other comodities such as gold and you have to report it regardless if you're moving it or not, otherwise they can freely confiscate it. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare-cash-under-mattress-jewelry-and-precious-stones http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare...
      - piaste 9y ago
        > (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?) No, but transactions over X € must be conducted using a traceable medium - cheques, credit cards, bank transfer, sometimes Bitcoin. X varies by country. Conducting transactions above X € in cash doesn't automatically constitute criminal money laundering, of course, it just gets fined.
dba7dba 9y ago
How is money laundering a 'fake' crime?

derefr 9y ago

The point wasn't who you ended up misleading, but that your intent was to mislead investigators in particular. Throwing a brick off the top of a building into a crowded street is attempted murder, even if it doesn't hit anybody, because clearly you had intent to drop the brick on a person's head.

chx 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

nappy 9y ago

*as How is money laundering a "fake" crime?

MichaelGG 9y ago
I have money for whatever reason. I pump it through a business of mine, paying taxes, etc. Normally this is totally fine - I'm not using it to commit fraud against investors, I'm paying taxes, etc. The important thing is that no one is being harmed, it's just me seeking some privacy in my own finances, and perhaps losing some money for the privilege (I may be spending post-tax money). Or perhaps it's simpler than that. I have a bunch of money in geographic location A, and I want to spend it in B, so I put it in a suitcase and walk/fly/drive on over. Now LE comes along and says, gee whiz, our jobs are really hard having to catch criminals doing criminal stuff. You know, let's make it illegal to use your money as you like, to have any sort of privacy in your transactions. Tada, now they can just go after people for moving money around. The sad thing is, they've won. They've made "money laundering" sound like something serious, instead of totally made up to make their jobs easy, and people seem to support such laws. Maybe they'll call encryption "data laundering", "bit smuggling", "safety obstruction" or something catchy to get people against it.
- openasocket 9y ago
  Money laundering is lying on federal documents, claiming your business is making more than it really is. And there's no reason to do it unless you've gotten the money illegally: otherwise you could just report to the IRS why you really have that money. And you suggest people are/should be able to lie on federal forms in the name of privacy?
  - mcbits 9y ago
    If it is known (proven beyond a reasonable doubt) that the money was acquired illegally, then mission accomplished. Convict them of the actual crime. If not, then the "crime" of moving money around in unconventional ways does seem pretty bogus - a way to punish someone on a hunch without the hassle of actually producing evidence. Much like when police search for drugs and fail to find anything, so they just take any money they find instead.
    - openasocket 9y ago
      Often the actual laundering process is done by a third party who takes a cut. A middleman who provides money laundering as a service to criminals. Under your scheme that person wouldn't be committing a crime and could not be prosecuted. But that's beside the point. The crime isn't "moving money around in unconventional ways," it's lying to the IRS and other government agencies. It's signing your name on all those tax documents that say "under penalty of perjury" after filling them in with false information.
      - mcbits 9y ago
        If someone commits perjury, convict them of perjury. There's no need to invent yet another crime. But I suspect it's not perjury. If a laundromat has an extra $500k of income and reports it as income, paying all relevant taxes, then so be it. If there is proof that the money came from criminal activity, then convict someone of that crime. Otherwise it's just a hunch.
        9y ago
petre 9y ago
A lot of usual situations like moving cash in excess of 10k euros without declaring it have been recently classified as attempts to launder money. In fact this is just how borrow happy states are hunting for taxes nowadays. Eliminating cash is their target. That way they can just take the money out of your account. Just look at India or other socialist states like Sweeden trying to eliminate cash while trumpeting that it's used for "money laundering".
- chrismcb 9y ago
  Typically it is illegal to not report a transaction over 10k. That is the law that was broken, not "money laundering" of course if you move a lot of money around just under the 10k, that is legal unless you knowingly break it up so that you don't have to report it.
  - bogositosius 9y ago
    In what jurisdiction do I have to report transferring more than $10,000? That's an obligation of the bank, not individuals using banks. (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?)
    - petre 9y ago
      No, the bank doesn't need to report it, they have transaction records on file. It's specifically about moving cash in excess of 10k euros. It's the same i nthe US, you have to report cash payments in excess to $10k to the IRS. http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-controls_en http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/cash-contro... In Greece they have even extended this to other comodities such as gold and you have to report it regardless if you're moving it or not, otherwise they can freely confiscate it. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare-cash-under-mattress-jewelry-and-precious-stones http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/greeks-told-declare...
    - piaste 9y ago
      > (At least in the U.S. Do EU citizens have to report themselves for such transactions?) No, but transactions over X € must be conducted using a traceable medium - cheques, credit cards, bank transfer, sometimes Bitcoin. X varies by country. Conducting transactions above X € in cash doesn't automatically constitute criminal money laundering, of course, it just gets fined.

dba7dba 9y ago

How is money laundering a 'fake' crime?