6 ms·

Recent generations are taking longer to "grow up"

41 points by jparise 16y ago

benwr 16y ago
As an eighteen-year-old I feel secure in pointing out that expectations of my level of maturity are far lower than they were for my father, let alone my grandfather. I believe that people generally rise to meet social expectations. Whether the drop in maturity level is due to the drop in expectations or the other way around, I don't know.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  It seems to me like developing maturity is in part tied to the responsibility you're given. Nowadays kids aren't held responsible for much, even after they turn 18, so maturity comes later and slower.
  - LogicHoleFlaw 16y ago
    My mother's saying was that "A boy becomes a man when a man is required."
- dazzawazza 16y ago
  As a father of a teen I concur. I'd also suggest that teenagers role models in the 20-30 year old age range all act like children (IMHO, see any TV show aimed at teens) and offer little or no inspiration to 'grow up'. The older generation expect little of the younger generation and they live up to that. We seem to think we are doing them a favour by indulging them in an eternal prepubescent spending spree.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Doesn't every single generation say this? We've got writings showing Socrates making the same complaint. If every generation keeps saying this, then doesn't that call its accuracy into question? I'd be a lot more comfortable if these sorts of claims were based on more objective data.
gte910h 16y ago
Have you looked at what income you'd get today if you had only the educational attainment of the average man of the last generation at 18 or 20? Or the one before it? You can't live the same level of life without more schooling now. It's an educational arms race. Graduate degrees and unpaid internships and long stint in "entry level" jobs that last for much of a decade, etc.
- InclinedPlane 16y ago
  I call BS. If you work in fast food or retail you won't be well off at all. But if you lack a college degree or even a high school diploma and go into construction, landscaping/yard maintenance, plumbing, automotive work, or a factory job (very much the same "meat and potatoes" jobs of older generations) you will actually be making significantly above median wages. As for college, on average I suspect it's a wash, income wise. For every graduate with an engineering, science, or business degree who is able to jump into a cushy high paying job at most a few years after completing school there are 1 or more graduates with less economically advantageous degrees in softer liberal-arts disciplines who gain almost no advantage in job hunting from their degrees.
  - say_ 16y ago
    "construction, landscaping/yard maintenance, plumbing, automotive work, or a factory job" Traditional jobs are the first to go in tough economic times. Trade school is a short term play. The world is only going to get more complex. While trade school might make someone better off in their 20s relative to someone who went to college, in the long term it will severely limit their opportunities.
    - BrandonM 16y ago
      The roads always need paved. I live in Ohio, where the cost of living is very low compared to much of the rest of the US, and jobs working on state highway projects pay over $18/hr. It's manual labor and it's dangerous to be near the roads, but it's far from the worst job you could have.
ilkhd2 16y ago
I think hidden biological mechanisms related to overpopulation have kicked in. Perhaps, subconsciously, when we see a lot more really old people living around, something switches on suggesting that reproduction can wait. Maybe informational explosion make us wait longer to acquire necessary amount of knowledge, necessary for decent life. Also, stupid TV and internet entertainment, combined with lack of opportunity in USA contributes to this problem. ... Every time I switch on American TV, I want to throw up.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  American TV's not ALL bad. Certainly mostly bad, but there are a few gems.
  - RK 16y ago
    And if you think American TV is bad, try watching TV in any other country. Things only get worse.
- johnkary 16y ago
  USA is now the land of lack of opportunity?
  - Unseelie 16y ago
    If there's opportunity, us college kids are certainly not being trained to see it.
    - techiferous 16y ago
      ...to create it...
- rue 16y ago
  > I think hidden biological mechanisms related to overpopulation have kicked in. I think that is assigning way too much determinism to the process. A far simpler explanation is that people are fundamentally much less "adult" than they have been forced to be in the past.
Maro 16y ago
I think one of the significant reasons in emancipation. Due to the strong coupling between man and woman this affects both genders. Young females today (20-30) are fairly confused about what they want to do in life, and when to do it. Get married? Have children? Cook? Be pretty? Screw around? Do a Phd? Go to work? Have a career? This also confuses guys: what can you expect from your girlfriend, and when? And what do women expect from us?
- techiferous 16y ago
  Isn't it great not to have a life script handed to you? :)
  - photon_off 16y ago
    Actually, not really. Sometimes I like people to make suggestions for me.
tomjen3 16y ago
First, respect for the submitter for putting quotes in the headline, as neither marriage nor children is a good sign of maturity. A teenage mother who wed her babyfather isn't mature, but she would count as a an adult in this case, whereas an atheistic phd student wouldn't. Does anybody have an actual and useful meassure of maturity?
- jleyank 16y ago
  It's probably overly naive, but how about "100% for their own survival"?
- varjag 16y ago
  > Does anybody have an actual and useful meassure of maturity? You pay your bills and solve your problems yourself?
bluedanieru 16y ago
It's true, with the job market in the toilet for the last decade, a public school system that encourages all its students to go to college, and a student loan industry that has allied with the federal government to drive up tuition and milk students and their families for all they're worth (to say nothing of predatory credit card lending), and with the resulting massive debt young people take on in starting their lives these days unparalleled in US history, yes people are tending to put off things like marriage, children, etc. Don't let that stop you from publishing a ridiculous and haughty article about 'kids these days' though, New York Times. I'd expect nothing less. I was lucky enough to avoid the worst of most of this stuff, but I'm not about to use that luck as a rhetorical device against my peers, some of whom made decisions that certainly would have seemed correct to anyone at the time, or who were simply misled by overzealous school counselors, or whatever. Just sayin'.
marcusbooster 16y ago
If we're living longer, so much so that they're considering pushing back social security eligibility; then doesn't it make sense to prolong what most people consider the better part of their lives? What about all the aging boomers in their 50-60's who still think they're 29. Even the term "cougar" has become popular enough to make mainstream culture.
- tocomment 16y ago
  They're considering pushing back social security?! Have they set a date? Hopefully people in their 30s would be grandfathers into the existing age?
alttab 16y ago
Unfortunately I have to agree with this article. I am in this targeted demographic, and I would have to say - categorically - that most of my friends have failed to grow up. Why would I use such a harsh word like failed? Its not the world, economic, and social differences from the age of our parents that causes them to "fail" in my book for growing up - it is purely based on the fact that they think they have. It is the generational arrogance. Almost every single one of my friends that I know from high school or college still live with their parents, have been working in the same job since they were 18, spend their money on depreciating assets, and think they have somehow made it just because they have a 4 year degree that their parents paid for. Getting a steady paycheck and blowing it on crap, not paying your own rent, health insurance, or groceries does not mean you are an adult. Throw in a healthy dose of entitlement vaporware accomplishment and you get a lot of strong-headed 20-somethings that couldn't recognize good advice if it was painted on their heads with neon lights. There is nothing about getting a degree and holding down a job where you manage not to get fired for 18 months means that you are an adult. Try "thinking outside of yourself," "thinking about the future," "managing your time, money, and emotions wisely," and almost invariably "stop thinking you have everything figured out when you're 23." Blink 182 was right - no one likes you. I was lucky enough to have my mom pay for all of my college, but I have since moved across the country, have been completely supporting myself financially for 2 years, and I'm closing on a house next month. I concentrate to realize I don't know everything (in fact I train myself to say I know almost nothing considering my age and life experience). If I can do it - I think the rest of my generation can. But they are privileged, lazy, entitled, and enabled by their parents. Its America's attitude that has caused this, not what has "happened" to America or our socio-political situation as a whole. I refuse to accept external attribution as a reason for immaturity and a failure to grow up.
timtadh 16y ago
I would also have to agree with this article. I am 22 and will be getting married in 6 months, however none of my friends from college or high school are making similar choices. While our family and friends have been supportive our decision to "marry early" as it were, others have been confused. Particularly late 20's and early 30's co-workers are put off by the idea, recommending not getting married until much later. I will note most of these individuals have never married, and seem to avoid long term relationships. So yes, this generation does seem to be avoiding/delaying marriage.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Many of the people I knew who married at 22 made bad marital choices. At least in the eyes of their family and friends. I say that because they tended to marry before they had established careers and before they had really lived independently after school. Even if you think that modern society forces people to postpone adulthood for too long, it does not necessarily follow that early marriages will benefit people on average. After all, if adulthood is delayed, then immature people will tend to make bad choices regarding future mates. I married in my late 20s. I have not avoided long term relationships.
johnwatson11218 16y ago
When I read articles like this I always think about the concept of neoteny. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny I read about this in The Naked Ape years ago. The idea is that neoteny can be a mechanism by which physical evolution takes place. I have wondered if it could also apply to societies and cultures. The only other place I head of neoteny was in a talk I downloaded where Bruce Eckel and another programmer were bashing the concept saying that it led managers to treat experienced developers like junior coders and demand more and more work for fixed pay.
- phaedrus 16y ago
  Richard Dawkins, in (iirc) The Selfish Gene proposed that if we really wanted to increase the average lifespan of humans beyond what it is now (we're on the high side of longevity compared to even other primates) then the way to do it would be if people were only allowed have children progressively later in life with each generation. It may be that we're doing this on our own naturally. I myself am the product of several generations who had children late in life, and it does seem like people in my family age more slowly.

41 points by jparise 16y ago

benwr 16y ago

As an eighteen-year-old I feel secure in pointing out that expectations of my level of maturity are far lower than they were for my father, let alone my grandfather. I believe that people generally rise to meet social expectations. Whether the drop in maturity level is due to the drop in expectations or the other way around, I don't know.

sliverstorm 16y ago
It seems to me like developing maturity is in part tied to the responsibility you're given. Nowadays kids aren't held responsible for much, even after they turn 18, so maturity comes later and slower.
- LogicHoleFlaw 16y ago
  My mother's saying was that "A boy becomes a man when a man is required."
dazzawazza 16y ago
As a father of a teen I concur. I'd also suggest that teenagers role models in the 20-30 year old age range all act like children (IMHO, see any TV show aimed at teens) and offer little or no inspiration to 'grow up'. The older generation expect little of the younger generation and they live up to that. We seem to think we are doing them a favour by indulging them in an eternal prepubescent spending spree.
MichaelSalib 16y ago
Doesn't every single generation say this? We've got writings showing Socrates making the same complaint. If every generation keeps saying this, then doesn't that call its accuracy into question? I'd be a lot more comfortable if these sorts of claims were based on more objective data.

gte910h 16y ago

Have you looked at what income you'd get today if you had only the educational attainment of the average man of the last generation at 18 or 20? Or the one before it? You can't live the same level of life without more schooling now. It's an educational arms race. Graduate degrees and unpaid internships and long stint in "entry level" jobs that last for much of a decade, etc.

InclinedPlane 16y ago
I call BS. If you work in fast food or retail you won't be well off at all. But if you lack a college degree or even a high school diploma and go into construction, landscaping/yard maintenance, plumbing, automotive work, or a factory job (very much the same "meat and potatoes" jobs of older generations) you will actually be making significantly above median wages. As for college, on average I suspect it's a wash, income wise. For every graduate with an engineering, science, or business degree who is able to jump into a cushy high paying job at most a few years after completing school there are 1 or more graduates with less economically advantageous degrees in softer liberal-arts disciplines who gain almost no advantage in job hunting from their degrees.
- say_ 16y ago
  "construction, landscaping/yard maintenance, plumbing, automotive work, or a factory job" Traditional jobs are the first to go in tough economic times. Trade school is a short term play. The world is only going to get more complex. While trade school might make someone better off in their 20s relative to someone who went to college, in the long term it will severely limit their opportunities.
  - BrandonM 16y ago
    The roads always need paved. I live in Ohio, where the cost of living is very low compared to much of the rest of the US, and jobs working on state highway projects pay over $18/hr. It's manual labor and it's dangerous to be near the roads, but it's far from the worst job you could have.

ilkhd2 16y ago

I think hidden biological mechanisms related to overpopulation have kicked in. Perhaps, subconsciously, when we see a lot more really old people living around, something switches on suggesting that reproduction can wait. Maybe informational explosion make us wait longer to acquire necessary amount of knowledge, necessary for decent life. Also, stupid TV and internet entertainment, combined with lack of opportunity in USA contributes to this problem. ... Every time I switch on American TV, I want to throw up.

sliverstorm 16y ago
American TV's not ALL bad. Certainly mostly bad, but there are a few gems.
- RK 16y ago
  And if you think American TV is bad, try watching TV in any other country. Things only get worse.
johnkary 16y ago
USA is now the land of lack of opportunity?
- Unseelie 16y ago
  If there's opportunity, us college kids are certainly not being trained to see it.
  - techiferous 16y ago
    ...to create it...
rue 16y ago
> I think hidden biological mechanisms related to overpopulation have kicked in. I think that is assigning way too much determinism to the process. A far simpler explanation is that people are fundamentally much less "adult" than they have been forced to be in the past.

Maro 16y ago

I think one of the significant reasons in emancipation. Due to the strong coupling between man and woman this affects both genders. Young females today (20-30) are fairly confused about what they want to do in life, and when to do it. Get married? Have children? Cook? Be pretty? Screw around? Do a Phd? Go to work? Have a career? This also confuses guys: what can you expect from your girlfriend, and when? And what do women expect from us?

techiferous 16y ago
Isn't it great not to have a life script handed to you? :)
- photon_off 16y ago
  Actually, not really. Sometimes I like people to make suggestions for me.

tomjen3 16y ago

First, respect for the submitter for putting quotes in the headline, as neither marriage nor children is a good sign of maturity. A teenage mother who wed her babyfather isn't mature, but she would count as a an adult in this case, whereas an atheistic phd student wouldn't. Does anybody have an actual and useful meassure of maturity?

jleyank 16y ago
It's probably overly naive, but how about "100% for their own survival"?
varjag 16y ago
> Does anybody have an actual and useful meassure of maturity? You pay your bills and solve your problems yourself?

bluedanieru 16y ago

It's true, with the job market in the toilet for the last decade, a public school system that encourages all its students to go to college, and a student loan industry that has allied with the federal government to drive up tuition and milk students and their families for all they're worth (to say nothing of predatory credit card lending), and with the resulting massive debt young people take on in starting their lives these days unparalleled in US history, yes people are tending to put off things like marriage, children, etc. Don't let that stop you from publishing a ridiculous and haughty article about 'kids these days' though, New York Times. I'd expect nothing less. I was lucky enough to avoid the worst of most of this stuff, but I'm not about to use that luck as a rhetorical device against my peers, some of whom made decisions that certainly would have seemed correct to anyone at the time, or who were simply misled by overzealous school counselors, or whatever. Just sayin'.

marcusbooster 16y ago

If we're living longer, so much so that they're considering pushing back social security eligibility; then doesn't it make sense to prolong what most people consider the better part of their lives? What about all the aging boomers in their 50-60's who still think they're 29. Even the term "cougar" has become popular enough to make mainstream culture.

tocomment 16y ago
They're considering pushing back social security?! Have they set a date? Hopefully people in their 30s would be grandfathers into the existing age?

alttab 16y ago

Unfortunately I have to agree with this article. I am in this targeted demographic, and I would have to say - categorically - that most of my friends have failed to grow up. Why would I use such a harsh word like failed? Its not the world, economic, and social differences from the age of our parents that causes them to "fail" in my book for growing up - it is purely based on the fact that they think they have. It is the generational arrogance. Almost every single one of my friends that I know from high school or college still live with their parents, have been working in the same job since they were 18, spend their money on depreciating assets, and think they have somehow made it just because they have a 4 year degree that their parents paid for. Getting a steady paycheck and blowing it on crap, not paying your own rent, health insurance, or groceries does not mean you are an adult. Throw in a healthy dose of entitlement vaporware accomplishment and you get a lot of strong-headed 20-somethings that couldn't recognize good advice if it was painted on their heads with neon lights. There is nothing about getting a degree and holding down a job where you manage not to get fired for 18 months means that you are an adult. Try "thinking outside of yourself," "thinking about the future," "managing your time, money, and emotions wisely," and almost invariably "stop thinking you have everything figured out when you're 23." Blink 182 was right - no one likes you. I was lucky enough to have my mom pay for all of my college, but I have since moved across the country, have been completely supporting myself financially for 2 years, and I'm closing on a house next month. I concentrate to realize I don't know everything (in fact I train myself to say I know almost nothing considering my age and life experience). If I can do it - I think the rest of my generation can. But they are privileged, lazy, entitled, and enabled by their parents. Its America's attitude that has caused this, not what has "happened" to America or our socio-political situation as a whole. I refuse to accept external attribution as a reason for immaturity and a failure to grow up.

timtadh 16y ago

I would also have to agree with this article. I am 22 and will be getting married in 6 months, however none of my friends from college or high school are making similar choices. While our family and friends have been supportive our decision to "marry early" as it were, others have been confused. Particularly late 20's and early 30's co-workers are put off by the idea, recommending not getting married until much later. I will note most of these individuals have never married, and seem to avoid long term relationships. So yes, this generation does seem to be avoiding/delaying marriage.

MichaelSalib 16y ago
Many of the people I knew who married at 22 made bad marital choices. At least in the eyes of their family and friends. I say that because they tended to marry before they had established careers and before they had really lived independently after school. Even if you think that modern society forces people to postpone adulthood for too long, it does not necessarily follow that early marriages will benefit people on average. After all, if adulthood is delayed, then immature people will tend to make bad choices regarding future mates. I married in my late 20s. I have not avoided long term relationships.

johnwatson11218 16y ago

When I read articles like this I always think about the concept of neoteny. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny I read about this in The Naked Ape years ago. The idea is that neoteny can be a mechanism by which physical evolution takes place. I have wondered if it could also apply to societies and cultures. The only other place I head of neoteny was in a talk I downloaded where Bruce Eckel and another programmer were bashing the concept saying that it led managers to treat experienced developers like junior coders and demand more and more work for fixed pay.

phaedrus 16y ago
Richard Dawkins, in (iirc) The Selfish Gene proposed that if we really wanted to increase the average lifespan of humans beyond what it is now (we're on the high side of longevity compared to even other primates) then the way to do it would be if people were only allowed have children progressively later in life with each generation. It may be that we're doing this on our own naturally. I myself am the product of several generations who had children late in life, and it does seem like people in my family age more slowly.