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Ok, I see. Well, I agree with you there. But I have an other problem here : it's theft as well when people who keep buying and selling property keep profiting o

Ok, I see. Well, I agree with you there. But I have an other problem here : it's theft as well when people who keep buying and selling property keep profiting on people who actually keep companies running, who keep losing. Trump, Lepen, what is called populism (I hate that word) feed on that. People feel that what they produce is being stolen. I, for one, don't want to think that finance is a problem. I think it's going too far, though, and that History is taking its revenge (or that it's on a downtrend?). I require your help here to stop the hate : can you think of something that allows to be fair to both those who own property and those who create its value? EDIT : or, to get more conceptual : you're fair to everyone, or you're fair to no one. Fairness is not a thing that applies to only a few, it's the exact opposite, by definition.

gnaritas 9y ago
> it's theft as well when people who keep buying and selling property keep profiting on people who actually keep companies running, who keep losing. I still don't understand what your complaint actually is? How are people who buy and sell stock being unfair to those who work at the company? The company got it's fair deal when it IPO'd and sold shares in exchange for money to operate. That investors later trade that stock back and forth between themselves doesn't affect the company who already got paid. If an investor makes money off a stock going up or down, it has no affect at all on the employees of the company so how exactly do you figure they're being treated unfairly?
- oelmekki 9y ago
  Complaint is a strong word, I'm not an employee myself, I'm just trying to think about what is fair :) > That investors later trade that stock back and forth between themselves doesn't affect the company who already got paid. This is where we don't agree. I've seen plenty of times companies that made profit being moved to other countries where work is cheaper, or companies that were doing not so well asking salary cuts, then not giving salary back when things were doing better, and distributing bonus instead. Now that I'm in trading, I know why : this is a mean to produce "good news" and make stock rise. There is unfairness to employees, there, and people are getting more and more angry against finance because of that, this will end badly. This is why I think allowing them to trade insider news - maybe with a moderate amount of money maximum - could defuse potential conflict. We could say to employees : "yes, stock value is a prime to us. But look, you can make good with it doing your own easy profits". It doesn't have to be about millions. Most employees would be very happy with an extra $500 here and there. The message sent by making insider trading a crime could be heard that way : we're making money with your work that we don't really care about because we won't own stock from your company a year from now, we're deteriorating your work environment, and we'll punish you if you try to join the party.
  - oelmekki 9y ago
    Here's an other idea : insider trading could be allowed only for buying on good news. That way, there won't be people owning stock losing big money without warning. Investors won't have a chance to buy stock, but this is a miss opportunity, not harm, and they'll have plenty other opportunities elsewhere, or they can even jump in during rise and still make profit, just smaller than usual. It could even be a good thing : I love to trade small amount during big unpredicted spikes, because their pullback is big as well for a few minutes, and I often make my day just on those (when there's no news and no TA reason, moves get crazy). It would harm shorters, but since those ones are wishing harm to the company, it still seems fair.
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      > It would harm shorters, but since those ones are wishing harm to the company, it still seems fair. No, it isn't fair; this notion that shorters are somehow bad guys is bigotry. Shorters are just as important as those who go long in keeping prices accurate, they are not bad in any way and thinking it's "fair" to fuck them is a symptom you don't understand the market. Shorters don't wish harm on companies, rather they see companies are irrationally overvalued or see the company is doing something to risky or behaving badly and expect the stock price to fall. Don't be a bigot against trading one directly over the other, they're both the same. And no, no insider trading at all, it's always stealing; you can't come up with a way to justify stealing. It's not ok to steal from investors to make up for being treated unfairly by your company.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    > The message sent by making insider trading a crime could be heard that way : we're making money with your work that we don't really care about because we won't own stock from your company a year from now, we're deteriorating your work environment, and we'll punish you if you try to join the party. I really don't think you understand the purpose of markets. If you did you wouldn't be having thoughts like this.
    - oelmekki 9y ago

gnaritas 9y ago

> it's theft as well when people who keep buying and selling property keep profiting on people who actually keep companies running, who keep losing. I still don't understand what your complaint actually is? How are people who buy and sell stock being unfair to those who work at the company? The company got it's fair deal when it IPO'd and sold shares in exchange for money to operate. That investors later trade that stock back and forth between themselves doesn't affect the company who already got paid. If an investor makes money off a stock going up or down, it has no affect at all on the employees of the company so how exactly do you figure they're being treated unfairly?

oelmekki 9y ago
Complaint is a strong word, I'm not an employee myself, I'm just trying to think about what is fair :) > That investors later trade that stock back and forth between themselves doesn't affect the company who already got paid. This is where we don't agree. I've seen plenty of times companies that made profit being moved to other countries where work is cheaper, or companies that were doing not so well asking salary cuts, then not giving salary back when things were doing better, and distributing bonus instead. Now that I'm in trading, I know why : this is a mean to produce "good news" and make stock rise. There is unfairness to employees, there, and people are getting more and more angry against finance because of that, this will end badly. This is why I think allowing them to trade insider news - maybe with a moderate amount of money maximum - could defuse potential conflict. We could say to employees : "yes, stock value is a prime to us. But look, you can make good with it doing your own easy profits". It doesn't have to be about millions. Most employees would be very happy with an extra $500 here and there. The message sent by making insider trading a crime could be heard that way : we're making money with your work that we don't really care about because we won't own stock from your company a year from now, we're deteriorating your work environment, and we'll punish you if you try to join the party.
- oelmekki 9y ago
  Here's an other idea : insider trading could be allowed only for buying on good news. That way, there won't be people owning stock losing big money without warning. Investors won't have a chance to buy stock, but this is a miss opportunity, not harm, and they'll have plenty other opportunities elsewhere, or they can even jump in during rise and still make profit, just smaller than usual. It could even be a good thing : I love to trade small amount during big unpredicted spikes, because their pullback is big as well for a few minutes, and I often make my day just on those (when there's no news and no TA reason, moves get crazy). It would harm shorters, but since those ones are wishing harm to the company, it still seems fair.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    > It would harm shorters, but since those ones are wishing harm to the company, it still seems fair. No, it isn't fair; this notion that shorters are somehow bad guys is bigotry. Shorters are just as important as those who go long in keeping prices accurate, they are not bad in any way and thinking it's "fair" to fuck them is a symptom you don't understand the market. Shorters don't wish harm on companies, rather they see companies are irrationally overvalued or see the company is doing something to risky or behaving badly and expect the stock price to fall. Don't be a bigot against trading one directly over the other, they're both the same. And no, no insider trading at all, it's always stealing; you can't come up with a way to justify stealing. It's not ok to steal from investors to make up for being treated unfairly by your company.
- gnaritas 9y ago
  > The message sent by making insider trading a crime could be heard that way : we're making money with your work that we don't really care about because we won't own stock from your company a year from now, we're deteriorating your work environment, and we'll punish you if you try to join the party. I really don't think you understand the purpose of markets. If you did you wouldn't be having thoughts like this.
  - oelmekki 9y ago