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You always pick between alternatives. Are lower income Americans better off with free trade compared to a closed economy? I think the answer is absolutely yes.

by tn135 9y ago

You always pick between alternatives. Are lower income Americans better off with free trade compared to a closed economy? I think the answer is absolutely yes. An average American saves lot more money today buying cheap stuff from Walmart. Lot more than what he/she would have saved with protectionist regime. More importantly a lot of services that were unaffordable 20 years ago are not trivial. This includes smartphones, flat screen TVs, better quality and safer cars etc. In closed economy you would have struggled for all these things. Just like my home country India.

notfromhere 9y ago
Sure TV's and chinese electronics are cheaper. Houses, healthcare, and education are not. Instead of making 55k a year at the GM plant, they're making 22k as a cashier at Dollar General. The flood of cheap goods destroyed communities that depended on manufacturing work
- tn135 9y ago
  > The flood of cheap goods destroyed communities that depended on manufacturing work There is no evidence to that. Cheap goods helped poor people live a better life and build better communities. American houses today are better than they were 30 years ago. American healthcare is more accessible than it was 30 years ago. More Americans are getting better education than 30 years ago.
  - Mz 9y ago
    I have one word for you: Detroit. They are in such deep doo doo, a charity was started to pay overdue water bills. They have the most $1 properties on auctions sites of any location. They are experiencing horrifying levels of blight. etc ad nauseum. There's your evidence.
    - tn135 9y ago
      > They are in such deep doo doo, a charity was started to pay overdue water bills. That is barely any evidence. It is like pointing to a failed Bakery and claiming Bakery industry has sunk. It is a bit like Trump's logic that because Disney replaced some of their staff with H1Bs all programmers are losing their jobs to H1Bs. Detroit had peak population in 19050s of 1.8M. Today it is half at around 700K. Most of the people have already left Detroit for better future and more will leave. But guess what? From California to Texas from Washington to Florida not only cities have grown rapidly they have seen unprecedented increase in quality of life of bottom 20% of people. Any protectionist measure aimed at "fixing" Detroit in the Trump's "Make America Great Again" style would have brought a lot of misery to all those people.
      - Mz 9y ago
        I was not advocating for protectionist measures. People who had well paid manufacturing jobs were not in the bottom 20%. Increases in quality of life of the bottom 20% is irrelevant to the point that manufacturing jobs have seriously declined and this has hurt a large segment of the population. I don't know nor care what your agenda is, but putting on blinders to obvious and undeniable facts in no way helps your case. People used to be able to get well paid factory jobs in the US without any special education. It isn't the end of the world -- average education needed for entry level work has been trending up for more than a hundred years -- but it absolutely is a hardship for a certain segment of the population.
        tn135 9y ago
        I have no agenda and I am genuine in my efforts to understand the counter viewpoint. It is just that I am unable to see the evidence anywhere and I can not understand the love of low end worthless manufacturing jobs. You are right only if you see things in isolation but society can not be seen that way. For example my grandpa grew his own organic food and died at the age of 45 by choking on Asthma (no medical care). My father is still alive at 70 despite drinking and eating genetically modified stuff all the time. While in isolation GMO food (might) be horrible, the fact is the lower prices of food have increased human productivity and has ensured my father could afford better health care. I feel things are very interconnected.

by tn135 9y ago

notfromhere 9y ago

Sure TV's and chinese electronics are cheaper. Houses, healthcare, and education are not. Instead of making 55k a year at the GM plant, they're making 22k as a cashier at Dollar General. The flood of cheap goods destroyed communities that depended on manufacturing work

tn135 9y ago
> The flood of cheap goods destroyed communities that depended on manufacturing work There is no evidence to that. Cheap goods helped poor people live a better life and build better communities. American houses today are better than they were 30 years ago. American healthcare is more accessible than it was 30 years ago. More Americans are getting better education than 30 years ago.
- Mz 9y ago
  I have one word for you: Detroit. They are in such deep doo doo, a charity was started to pay overdue water bills. They have the most $1 properties on auctions sites of any location. They are experiencing horrifying levels of blight. etc ad nauseum. There's your evidence.
  - tn135 9y ago
    > They are in such deep doo doo, a charity was started to pay overdue water bills. That is barely any evidence. It is like pointing to a failed Bakery and claiming Bakery industry has sunk. It is a bit like Trump's logic that because Disney replaced some of their staff with H1Bs all programmers are losing their jobs to H1Bs. Detroit had peak population in 19050s of 1.8M. Today it is half at around 700K. Most of the people have already left Detroit for better future and more will leave. But guess what? From California to Texas from Washington to Florida not only cities have grown rapidly they have seen unprecedented increase in quality of life of bottom 20% of people. Any protectionist measure aimed at "fixing" Detroit in the Trump's "Make America Great Again" style would have brought a lot of misery to all those people.
    - Mz 9y ago
      I was not advocating for protectionist measures. People who had well paid manufacturing jobs were not in the bottom 20%. Increases in quality of life of the bottom 20% is irrelevant to the point that manufacturing jobs have seriously declined and this has hurt a large segment of the population. I don't know nor care what your agenda is, but putting on blinders to obvious and undeniable facts in no way helps your case. People used to be able to get well paid factory jobs in the US without any special education. It isn't the end of the world -- average education needed for entry level work has been trending up for more than a hundred years -- but it absolutely is a hardship for a certain segment of the population.
      - tn135 9y ago
        I have no agenda and I am genuine in my efforts to understand the counter viewpoint. It is just that I am unable to see the evidence anywhere and I can not understand the love of low end worthless manufacturing jobs. You are right only if you see things in isolation but society can not be seen that way. For example my grandpa grew his own organic food and died at the age of 45 by choking on Asthma (no medical care). My father is still alive at 70 despite drinking and eating genetically modified stuff all the time. While in isolation GMO food (might) be horrible, the fact is the lower prices of food have increased human productivity and has ensured my father could afford better health care. I feel things are very interconnected.