5 ms·

$34 Billion Asset Manager Says Market Prices Are Manipulated

34 points by jakarta 16y ago

rrhyne 16y ago
Zero Hedge has been my main source of financial news for almost a year. They've been out in front of some big stories that shine a light through some dark spaces.
- rjett 16y ago
  Really? Zerohedge certainly does paint an alternate reality from most other sources, but most of the time the writing seems so manic and chock-full of conspiracy theories that it's hard to take seriously. Zerohedge gained traction in an environment of fear and panic and Tyler Durden, whoever he is, plays that trump card very well. For anyone who's interested: http://nymag.com/guides/money/2009/59457/ http://nymag.com/guides/money/2009/59457/
  - rrhyne 16y ago
    Oh it's manic AND full of conspiracy theories, but even your article gives them credit for outing the HFT 'conspiracy theory' to the masses.
  - mistermann 16y ago
    Tyler at zerohedge is certainly prolific in his posting and definitely lacks the editorial oversight found elsewhere (thankfully), but most of what he posts is relevant and worth considering. If you think what he discusses is purely "conspiracy theories", presumably because it doesn't jive with the official sanctioned arbiters of information, I have to ask, how weird does it have to get before you'll start to consider that perhaps the official sources aren't telling the truth. For example:, the ratings agencies, who are supposed to give unbiased information, do anything but. Or....the formula for calculating unemployed workers. This had changed drastically in the last decade, yet we are constantly presented with the current numbers compared to historic numbers, when they are using entirely different formulas.
TGJ 16y ago
I'm pretty sure I read about this from this HN before. Take for example the story of the 15 year old that found out how to drum up stocks and turn a profit and the SEC barely does anything when they find out because they don't want the public to learn about the practices on Wall Street. http://www.cs.brown.edu/~rbb/risd/Lebed.html http://www.cs.brown.edu/~rbb/risd/Lebed.html
- blehn 16y ago
  Thanks for sharing that article. The kid's letter to his lawyer was remarkably clever. If it wasn't for everybody manipulating the market, there wouldn't be a stock market at all...
- jrockway 16y ago
  That's a pretty dishonest characterization of the article. It is a case of the government taking a settlement because they are afraid of losing in court, but everyone knows that stock prices are artificial and that the media can manipulate them. That's why I don't get the recent anti-speculation sentiment. The stock market was never about value-investing, it's about speculation. Everything is speculation -- when you put money in a CD, you are speculating that the bank is not going to become insolvent and lose your money (and that the insurer is also not going to become insolvent). That's why you get the interest rate premium over treasury bonds. Now, you may argue that you're less likely to lose money in your savings account than in betting that Google will drop to $1 a share, and you're right... but it's all about degrees. Every decision you make is speculation. The market is all speculation, either people speculating, or people's algorithms speculating. Nothing more.
  - mistermann 16y ago
    Really? So all the explicit rules and regulations about disclosure, etc that participants in the stock market must adhere to are not actually binding? Everything is just a big crapshoot? Sadly, your assessment is just about bang on of how it actually is. What people are complaining about is that it is advertised as something else. After the whole Bre-x scandal, there are now very strict rules on stating mineral resources. However, you can adhere to those rules, get money from investors to fully develop a mine and mill, and then sell the company for ten cents on on the dollar to a cayman islands based company, and the regulators won't bat an eye, even when you do most of the legwork for them. You seem to talk as if the markets have always been rigged. It was not always like this. Of course there were always indiscretions here and there, but the way it is now is just ridiculous.
c00p3r 16y ago
There are much more enjoyable readings on ZH. =) It is one of them: http://www.zerohedge.com/article/welcome-insane-asylum-%E2%80%93-our-collective-psychosis-chapter-one http://www.zerohedge.com/article/welcome-insane-asylum-%E2%8...

34 points by jakarta 16y ago

Zero Hedge has been my main source of financial news for almost a year. They've been out in front of some big stories that shine a light through some dark spaces.

rjett 16y ago
Really? Zerohedge certainly does paint an alternate reality from most other sources, but most of the time the writing seems so manic and chock-full of conspiracy theories that it's hard to take seriously. Zerohedge gained traction in an environment of fear and panic and Tyler Durden, whoever he is, plays that trump card very well. For anyone who's interested: http://nymag.com/guides/money/2009/59457/ http://nymag.com/guides/money/2009/59457/
- rrhyne 16y ago
  Oh it's manic AND full of conspiracy theories, but even your article gives them credit for outing the HFT 'conspiracy theory' to the masses.
- mistermann 16y ago
  Tyler at zerohedge is certainly prolific in his posting and definitely lacks the editorial oversight found elsewhere (thankfully), but most of what he posts is relevant and worth considering. If you think what he discusses is purely "conspiracy theories", presumably because it doesn't jive with the official sanctioned arbiters of information, I have to ask, how weird does it have to get before you'll start to consider that perhaps the official sources aren't telling the truth. For example:, the ratings agencies, who are supposed to give unbiased information, do anything but. Or....the formula for calculating unemployed workers. This had changed drastically in the last decade, yet we are constantly presented with the current numbers compared to historic numbers, when they are using entirely different formulas.

TGJ 16y ago

I'm pretty sure I read about this from this HN before. Take for example the story of the 15 year old that found out how to drum up stocks and turn a profit and the SEC barely does anything when they find out because they don't want the public to learn about the practices on Wall Street. http://www.cs.brown.edu/~rbb/risd/Lebed.html http://www.cs.brown.edu/~rbb/risd/Lebed.html

blehn 16y ago
Thanks for sharing that article. The kid's letter to his lawyer was remarkably clever. If it wasn't for everybody manipulating the market, there wouldn't be a stock market at all...
jrockway 16y ago
That's a pretty dishonest characterization of the article. It is a case of the government taking a settlement because they are afraid of losing in court, but everyone knows that stock prices are artificial and that the media can manipulate them. That's why I don't get the recent anti-speculation sentiment. The stock market was never about value-investing, it's about speculation. Everything is speculation -- when you put money in a CD, you are speculating that the bank is not going to become insolvent and lose your money (and that the insurer is also not going to become insolvent). That's why you get the interest rate premium over treasury bonds. Now, you may argue that you're less likely to lose money in your savings account than in betting that Google will drop to $1 a share, and you're right... but it's all about degrees. Every decision you make is speculation. The market is all speculation, either people speculating, or people's algorithms speculating. Nothing more.
- mistermann 16y ago
  Really? So all the explicit rules and regulations about disclosure, etc that participants in the stock market must adhere to are not actually binding? Everything is just a big crapshoot? Sadly, your assessment is just about bang on of how it actually is. What people are complaining about is that it is advertised as something else. After the whole Bre-x scandal, there are now very strict rules on stating mineral resources. However, you can adhere to those rules, get money from investors to fully develop a mine and mill, and then sell the company for ten cents on on the dollar to a cayman islands based company, and the regulators won't bat an eye, even when you do most of the legwork for them. You seem to talk as if the markets have always been rigged. It was not always like this. Of course there were always indiscretions here and there, but the way it is now is just ridiculous.

c00p3r 16y ago

There are much more enjoyable readings on ZH. =) It is one of them: http://www.zerohedge.com/article/welcome-insane-asylum-%E2%80%93-our-collective-psychosis-chapter-one http://www.zerohedge.com/article/welcome-insane-asylum-%E2%8...