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Sure, the underlying problem is depression. We can still have a reasonable discussion about things that enable that depression, or extend it. That's not at all

Sure, the underlying problem is depression. We can still have a reasonable discussion about things that enable that depression, or extend it. That's not at all a silly concern.

jklinger410 10y ago
Convenience of any form enables unfavorable outcomes. Delivery pizza may have caused suicide, from this perspective.
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  Yes! It may have! Why is that not something that can be discussed? I mean, I'd bet good money that delivery pizza is a net benefit, but I can still admit that some people probably rely on it in a way that's unhealthy.
mojowo11 10y ago
Meal replacement shakes have been around for, what, 2+ decades now? Saying that Soylent has come along and now somehow enables depressed people strikes me as insanity. Depressed people misuse all kinds of perfectly valid products and services. Being mad at Soylent, or pizza delivery, or the internet, or beds, or any other thing that depressed people might end up leaning on in an unhealthy way seems pretty silly to me.
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  Except Soylent marketed itself as a replacement. All those shakes you talk about are aimed at supplementing. They weren't stupid enough to tell people to live on it because of the legal liability.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    I agree Soylent used irresponsible marketing. But many of those other products can be used as sole source of nutrition. EG fortisip: http://www.nutricia.ie/products/view/fortisip http://www.nutricia.ie/products/view/fortisip > Fortisip is a Food for Special Medical Purposes for use under medical supervision. Fortisip is a nutritionally complete, 1.5kcal/ml, ready to drink, milk shake style nutritional supplement, for the management of disease related malnutrition. Fortisip can be used to supplement the diet of patients unable to meet their nutritional requirements from other foods, or used as a sole source of nutrition. Fortisip is available in 200ml bottles, with a flexible straw attached, in 8 flavours: Neutral, Vanilla, Chocolate, Toffee, Banana, Orange, Strawberry and Tropical Fruits. Ensure original: https://abbottnutrition.com/ensure-original https://abbottnutrition.com/ensure-original > For interim sole-source nutrition.
    - ambrice 10y ago
      How is it irresponsible marketing?
      - ambrice 10y ago
        Oh right, we already had this discussion. At least they got upgraded from "unethical marketing" to "irresponsible marketing". But how long can you continue to claim that the company engages in irresponsible marketing based on (allegedly) exaggerated claims during a Kickstarter?
        DanBC 9y ago
        Hence my use of the past tense "used", not present tense "uses".
- mbesto 10y ago
  From the parent's comment: > I think many people approach Soylent as a way to solve some of their problems, but people should realize it won't be and can't be. I'm not sure the parent's tone indicated that they were "mad" at Soylent and honestly your response to it is fairly insensitive. > Meal replacement shakes have been around for, what, 2+ decades now? Reading the copy on the Soylent website suggests that it saves you time. If meal replacement shakes have been around, then what is Soylent's value proposition and what makes it different?
  - vidarh 10y ago
    > If meal replacement shakes have been around, then what is Soylent's value proposition and what makes it different? Marketing. Initially based around the idea of replacing all food with it (which even the founder stopped doing during his initial trial). It's tapping into a lot of sentiments around food as a "problem" or "nuisance", where a lot of the other shakes on the market have gone for the health and fitness angle, or the "I'm too important and busy to sit down and have breakfeast so I'll down a shake on the go" angle. But it's not bringing much more than marketing.
    - Questron 10y ago
      It's: "Look! I'm busy! I'm important! I eat special food!"
      - nf05papsjfVbc 10y ago
        Are you unwilling to consider that there are people for whom food is not a priority and is actually a nuisance? Like say cleaning one's home - which some enjoy and some find a chore.
- JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
  Meal replacement shakes like Ensure are meant to be supplemental to food. Soylent markets their product as ALL you have to eat, if you so desire. That could have a very different outcome on someone's health. The OP was giving his experiences with it.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > Meal replacement shakes like Ensure are meant to be supplemental to food. I wish people would stop saying this. There are many products, some are Ensure brands, that can be used as sole source nutrition products. They don't market themselves like that to the general public because they're big companies with lots of lawyers who are cautious about that kind of claim.
    - JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
      What Ensure products are meant to be all you ever eat?
derefr 10y ago
It seems to me that everything that enables depression is almost always otherwise an objective good. Internet access enables depression. Having shelter that won't be taken away from you for lack of monthly payment enables depression. A family willing to take care of you enables depression. Remote work enables depression. Etc. Depression, in this way, is kind of a weird bogeyman of an argument: its prevalence would be increased by anything that makes life easier. And so, naturally, the solution is reactionary: eliminate depression by eliminating progress! (This is the same sentiment behind the phrase "idle hands are the Devil's workshop"—made clearer with the knowledge that Christianity considers sloth–or in other translations, sadness—a sin.)
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  What if it's not a bogeyman, but something that really is pervasive and should be addressed? I don't think the commenter or anyone I've read is saying "eliminate progress". Have you, or are you just making it up for rhetorical effect? Look, it's not crazy to grant that each of those things is a benefit and bring up the fact that there are downsides. It doesn't have to be all good or all bad. We can say "ordering pizza is great, and we should consider the fact that some people rely on it to the detriment of their physical and emotional well-being."
  - derefr 10y ago
    Making life hard on people with a problem, doesn't make the problem go away. It just makes people struggle harder, with worse options, that wear them out even more, as they struggle through the same problem. It's this same attitude that ends up with heroin addicts on the street: these are almost always people who, at one point, had chronic pain; and then became addicted to their (much less scary) pain medications; and then, when someone decided to make it hard to live an easy life while addicted to pain medications by taking the supply away, they "solved" this problem by finding a different opiate to consume that they could access. A person with depression will be able to have an easier time having depression if they don't have to cook for themselves, yes. But you know what that easier time means for them? More emotional energy left over to maybe try to get over their depression! And you know who's never going to get over their depression? The person stuck spending the little time they feel like getting out of bed each day trying to scrounge up a meal, pay bills, take care of children/parents, etc. In short: things like Soylent are, at worst, a crutch. Even when misused and relied upon long-term, they're still letting people have the opportunity to get better, in a way that forcing them to "walk it off" would permanently disable.

Sure, the underlying problem is depression. We can still have a reasonable discussion about things that enable that depression, or extend it. That's not at all a silly concern.

jklinger410 10y ago

Convenience of any form enables unfavorable outcomes. Delivery pizza may have caused suicide, from this perspective.

GavinMcG 10y ago
Yes! It may have! Why is that not something that can be discussed? I mean, I'd bet good money that delivery pizza is a net benefit, but I can still admit that some people probably rely on it in a way that's unhealthy.

mojowo11 10y ago

Meal replacement shakes have been around for, what, 2+ decades now? Saying that Soylent has come along and now somehow enables depressed people strikes me as insanity. Depressed people misuse all kinds of perfectly valid products and services. Being mad at Soylent, or pizza delivery, or the internet, or beds, or any other thing that depressed people might end up leaning on in an unhealthy way seems pretty silly to me.

brilliantcode 10y ago
Except Soylent marketed itself as a replacement. All those shakes you talk about are aimed at supplementing. They weren't stupid enough to tell people to live on it because of the legal liability.
- DanBC 10y ago
  I agree Soylent used irresponsible marketing. But many of those other products can be used as sole source of nutrition. EG fortisip: http://www.nutricia.ie/products/view/fortisip http://www.nutricia.ie/products/view/fortisip > Fortisip is a Food for Special Medical Purposes for use under medical supervision. Fortisip is a nutritionally complete, 1.5kcal/ml, ready to drink, milk shake style nutritional supplement, for the management of disease related malnutrition. Fortisip can be used to supplement the diet of patients unable to meet their nutritional requirements from other foods, or used as a sole source of nutrition. Fortisip is available in 200ml bottles, with a flexible straw attached, in 8 flavours: Neutral, Vanilla, Chocolate, Toffee, Banana, Orange, Strawberry and Tropical Fruits. Ensure original: https://abbottnutrition.com/ensure-original https://abbottnutrition.com/ensure-original > For interim sole-source nutrition.
  - ambrice 10y ago
    How is it irresponsible marketing?
    - ambrice 10y ago
      Oh right, we already had this discussion. At least they got upgraded from "unethical marketing" to "irresponsible marketing". But how long can you continue to claim that the company engages in irresponsible marketing based on (allegedly) exaggerated claims during a Kickstarter?
      - DanBC 9y ago
        Hence my use of the past tense "used", not present tense "uses".
mbesto 10y ago
From the parent's comment: > I think many people approach Soylent as a way to solve some of their problems, but people should realize it won't be and can't be. I'm not sure the parent's tone indicated that they were "mad" at Soylent and honestly your response to it is fairly insensitive. > Meal replacement shakes have been around for, what, 2+ decades now? Reading the copy on the Soylent website suggests that it saves you time. If meal replacement shakes have been around, then what is Soylent's value proposition and what makes it different?
- vidarh 10y ago
  > If meal replacement shakes have been around, then what is Soylent's value proposition and what makes it different? Marketing. Initially based around the idea of replacing all food with it (which even the founder stopped doing during his initial trial). It's tapping into a lot of sentiments around food as a "problem" or "nuisance", where a lot of the other shakes on the market have gone for the health and fitness angle, or the "I'm too important and busy to sit down and have breakfeast so I'll down a shake on the go" angle. But it's not bringing much more than marketing.
  - Questron 10y ago
    It's: "Look! I'm busy! I'm important! I eat special food!"
    - nf05papsjfVbc 10y ago
      Are you unwilling to consider that there are people for whom food is not a priority and is actually a nuisance? Like say cleaning one's home - which some enjoy and some find a chore.
JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
Meal replacement shakes like Ensure are meant to be supplemental to food. Soylent markets their product as ALL you have to eat, if you so desire. That could have a very different outcome on someone's health. The OP was giving his experiences with it.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > Meal replacement shakes like Ensure are meant to be supplemental to food. I wish people would stop saying this. There are many products, some are Ensure brands, that can be used as sole source nutrition products. They don't market themselves like that to the general public because they're big companies with lots of lawyers who are cautious about that kind of claim.
  - JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
    What Ensure products are meant to be all you ever eat?

derefr 10y ago

It seems to me that everything that enables depression is almost always otherwise an objective good. Internet access enables depression. Having shelter that won't be taken away from you for lack of monthly payment enables depression. A family willing to take care of you enables depression. Remote work enables depression. Etc. Depression, in this way, is kind of a weird bogeyman of an argument: its prevalence would be increased by anything that makes life easier. And so, naturally, the solution is reactionary: eliminate depression by eliminating progress! (This is the same sentiment behind the phrase "idle hands are the Devil's workshop"—made clearer with the knowledge that Christianity considers sloth–or in other translations, sadness—a sin.)

GavinMcG 10y ago
What if it's not a bogeyman, but something that really is pervasive and should be addressed? I don't think the commenter or anyone I've read is saying "eliminate progress". Have you, or are you just making it up for rhetorical effect? Look, it's not crazy to grant that each of those things is a benefit and bring up the fact that there are downsides. It doesn't have to be all good or all bad. We can say "ordering pizza is great, and we should consider the fact that some people rely on it to the detriment of their physical and emotional well-being."
- derefr 10y ago
  Making life hard on people with a problem, doesn't make the problem go away. It just makes people struggle harder, with worse options, that wear them out even more, as they struggle through the same problem. It's this same attitude that ends up with heroin addicts on the street: these are almost always people who, at one point, had chronic pain; and then became addicted to their (much less scary) pain medications; and then, when someone decided to make it hard to live an easy life while addicted to pain medications by taking the supply away, they "solved" this problem by finding a different opiate to consume that they could access. A person with depression will be able to have an easier time having depression if they don't have to cook for themselves, yes. But you know what that easier time means for them? More emotional energy left over to maybe try to get over their depression! And you know who's never going to get over their depression? The person stuck spending the little time they feel like getting out of bed each day trying to scrounge up a meal, pay bills, take care of children/parents, etc. In short: things like Soylent are, at worst, a crutch. Even when misused and relied upon long-term, they're still letting people have the opportunity to get better, in a way that forcing them to "walk it off" would permanently disable.