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A Jigsaw Puzzle Was Given to Ellis Island Immigrants to Test Their IQ
- wand3r 9y agoImmigration is a lot like hiring. You want smart people with good cultural fit. Not in the sense that everyone must be the same culture, but the ideals and ethics of the two cultures must be rooted in similar things. The puzzle is a bad implementation of the idea that we should test for intelligence. Again, like hiring. This is the fizz buzz test with all the same problems
- alphonsegaston 9y agoNo, really it's not. America has been changed for the better by many immigrants who had "ideals and ethics" quite counter to what dominated American society at the time. Many European Jewish immigrants, for example, fought for labor rights and racial equality based on their treatment in their home countries. This was much to the chagrin of anti-Semitic "titans of industry" like Ford and Disney, who are absurdly still held up as paragons of American culture. The dynamism of American society exists precisely to the extent that we don't let unthinking appeals to the validity of the status quo guide our behavior.
- golergka 9y ago> Many European Jewish immigrants, for example, fought for labor rights Like Alisa Rosenbaum?
- systems 9y agoso for example in any given country, you think the people who voted for president x, and the people who protest against him, both share the same culture ... the same values is culture something that can change, do you think your culture, values .. changed over time, or could have anyway .. check immigrants for crime records, check them for what they did, or do .. not what they think (or what you think they may do, based on what you think of their ideas), because you know what immigrants spend few years 3 to 6 usually in any country before being granted citizenship, during that time if they break the law in any major way, killed someone for example, this in most countries will prevent them from being granted citizenship ... so you see there is a way to see if they fit, and that is ... if they respect the law ... and the law should be fair, and the law can be changed, this is only to preserve freedom of expression and thinking and i agree immigration is not like hiring, because a country is not like a company, companies are not democracies .. companies have owners, countries dont
- DarkKomunalec 9y ago"a country is not like a company, companies are not democracies .. companies have owners, countries dont" I disagree - the citizens of a country are its owners.
- systems 9y agono they are not, this is exactly my point, you dont own your country ... you just have a vote ... which you dont always use , sometimes your vote will win, sometimes not what separate a citizen from a resident is ... in most place i know .. the right to vote and an owner does need a vote .. he may have some restrictions imposed by law, or how to use what he owns, but beyond that .. he can do whatever he want with what he owns, not permissions needed
- DarkKomunalec 9y agoSays you. But shouldn't the citizens be the ones to decide what to do with their country, and whether they're 'owners' or not, whatever that means?
- JoeAltmaier 9y agoYet we have high-sounding words in law, about rights and pursuing happiness. Denying that to others is the highest hypocrisy, is it not?
- DarkKomunalec 9y agoHypocrisy would be forbidding immigration to others, while expecting other countries to allow it for yourself. I expect no such thing, and indeed most countries don't allow unlimited immigration. And the US is not the only place where one can pursue happiness.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
- golergka 9y ago> This is the fizz buzz test with all the same problems What is your opinion on fizz buzz problems? I've found it to be a tremendous help in the early interviewing process.
- phaus 9y agoHere's my issue with it. I've taken a few programming classes. I could easily write fizzbuzz as soon as I understood the syntax for loops. So, we're talking day 1 of programming class. I could write it in like 4-5 different languages right now. It would take some work, but I might even be able to figure out how to write it in assembly. I still haven't written an actual program beyond the simple exercises where you are trying to run a calculation and get a specific output from the command-line. I suppose it's good at filtering out people that don't even know the syntax of a programming language, but do such people apply to programming jobs frequently enough for fizzbuzz to be useful? Edit: Didn't intend to offend people. I just can't comprehend why a person would apply for a job when they don't know how to do it. I now get that it's a bozo-check, I'm just surprised there's s need for it. I hire in a similar industry and while we run into a lot of people that are obviously bad and or inexperienced, they usually at least know the basics.
- jstanley 9y agoPassing fizzbuzz isn't meant to indicate that the person is a good programmer. Failing fizzbuzz is a quick way to indicate that the person is not a good programmer.
- k_lander 9y agoperhaps the sims would be a better test
- stctgion 9y agoComments like this make me lose faith in HN readers. These were human beings. This wasn't a job interview. Not caring for a human being on the grounds of IQ is a really disturbing thought.
- pmoriarty 9y agoA lot of people here are probably above average in intelligence (or consider themselves so), so may have trouble relating to people who are discriminated against based on their perceived intelligence, though some are no doubt minorities and can relate on at least at some level. Many probably also believe that being more intelligent means you're superior and more deserving than someone who's less intelligent. There's also a lot of anti-immigrant, "defend the homeland from the foreign hordes" sentiment around the world these days. I'd wonder how these people would react to the idea of having even native-born people have to take a citizenship test that included some IQ test when they turned 18, and if the failed they'd lose their citizenship. I bet many elites would be ok with that because they'd expect themselves and their children to pass, but I'm not so sure about the rest. They'd probably feel they were entitled to citizenship just because they had a lucky birth.
- douche 9y agoOn the other hand, we're stuck with the dubs who were lucky enough to be born in this country, and there's more than enough of them already. We don't need to import more low-functioning people, rather the opposite. It's idiotic the way we gate the top end of people trying to immigrate here legally, but were opening the floodgates on the low end. If someone is talented enough to get an H1B visa, or graduate from a top university, those are the people I'd roll out the red carpet for, rather than shackling them in pseudo indentured servitude or kicking them back to their home countries when their student visas expire.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ihaveahadron 9y agoWhat makes a jigsaw puzzle any worse of a test than anything else. Genius
- DarkKomunalec 9y agoI think it's more like who to permanently allow into your home, rather than hiring. After all, you don't just work in your country, you live there too.
- skybrian 9y agoThat's a misleading metaphor. A country that includes 300 million people cannot be a safe place like a home, or even a workplace. Anything you might be afraid of is already here, somewhere.
- DarkKomunalec 9y agoIt may be there, but in what quantity? Please don't imply all countries are equally safe. And why should fear be the only cause to bar entry? Is that the standard you'd use for your home? I'd start with close friends and family, myself, then go from there.
- ceejayoz 9y ago> Is that the standard you'd use for your home? One doesn't (and shouldn't) run a country like a house.
- DarkKomunalec 9y agoDo not confuse a house with a home. After all, you have a homeland, not a houseland.
- ceejayoz 9y agoI'm not interested in semantic gotcha games. You get to limit your house to friends and family. Have at it. You don't get to limit your country to that. Hell, you don't even get to limit your property to that, if you've got a sidewalk on it.
- 9y ago
- sangnoir 9y ago> Not in the sense that everyone must be the same culture, but the ideals and ethics of the two cultures must be rooted in similar things. [Citation needed]. The cultures should only be compatible - not necessarily rooted in similar things. Japanese zen-buddhist shame culture is not rooted in similar things as America's typical protestant Christian guilt culture. To my knowledge Japanese immigrants did (and still do) integrate well. Humans are ridiculously adaptable, I would argue the reverse of your argument - that there is no culture on earth that precludes any immigrant from flourishing in modern, secular western countries. In fact, voluntary immigrants are preselected for willingness to adapt.
- erichocean 9y ago> Humans are ridiculously adaptable [Citation needed].
- wand3r 9y agoCompatible is a better word for what I meant. Thanks
- openasocket 9y agoI disagree. America has been and should continue to be a diverse melting pot, accepting peoples and ideals from all corners of the globe. We shouldn't try to weed out people based on something like intelligence or a vague notion of "cultural fit," as though some people should be held to a higher standard to live in this country based purely on an accident of birth. We should accept immigrants based on capacity. I know it sounds quaint and hokey, but I really believe in the words engraved at the foot of the statue of liberty: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
- omonra 9y agoSeems like a reasonable thing to do. Not sure what is deplorable about wanting only bright people to immigrate to your country.
- jlebrech 9y agoask them who they hate and don't let either one of them into the country. or who they fear and if multiple cultures fear another culture don't let that one in.
- djaychela 9y agoI think I'd have been deported - the facial profile that's made by the puzzle is bizarre looking, the kind of thing that you'd do and be convinced you'd got the wrong end of the stick.
- nom 9y agoMe too! It just doesn't look right and I probably would try all combinations over and over and overthink it too much until they decide that I must be "feeble minded"
- strictnein 9y agoAs another commenter pointed out, there was a face drawn on the pieces, which made it pretty straight forward https://intelligencegroup581.wikispaces.com/file/view/feat_prof.png/139922425/827x679/feat_prof.png https://intelligencegroup581.wikispaces.com/file/view/feat_p...
- retox 9y agoOy
- hartator 9y agoI guess it didn't change much, it's just now Google which is judging fizz buzz tests! :)
- alphonsegaston 9y agoThis kind of history is what strikes me as so absurd about anti-immigrant rhetoric about "doing things the right way." If the ancestors of wide swathes of the American populations were judged by modern standards, they would have been turned away. Instead, their great-great-grandparents solved a jigsaw puzzle and had someone size them up to see if they "looked like they had TB" before they were let in the door. Their entitlement to some kind of imagined cultural patrimony is such an obvious historical fiction.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- tyingq 9y agoIt looks like part of the problem is that somebody simplified what the puzzle was supposed to look like: https://intelligencegroup581.wikispaces.com/file/view/feat_prof.png/139922425/827x679/feat_prof.png https://intelligencegroup581.wikispaces.com/file/view/feat_p... A bit easier when the pieces are the right shape, and the black ink isn't missing or worn off. Edit: Another historical picture with yet another configuration of the same puzzle: http://imgur.com/a/URP4m http://imgur.com/a/URP4m Edit: Please note "Part of the Problem". I agree it still has issues.
- JoeAltmaier 9y agoHm. Its still abstract. Without telling me "a face in profile" I could totally misinterpret the blocks. That ear - wow. And the mouth - why isn't the paint reflected in the shape of the block? And who's to say how many took the test with the paint worn off? Further, I'd say this has no fewer cultural references than any other IQ test. Doing a block puzzle at all is cultural. Understanding that the ink and the shapes were independent parts of the problem. That a face could be drawn in profile. That a face can be represented just by eyes, lips, ears, and painted mouth. That anybody would draw important conclusions about your future from a child's toy.
- notahacker 9y agoI can't help thinking the adjective "feeble minded" applies more to people that genuinely thought aptitude for solving such a puzzle said much about the employability and mindset required to integrate into early American societies than the immigrants bemused by the request and the puzzle's rather poor design...
- defen 9y agoWell, the article says they rejected 0.1% of the applicants for "feeble mindedness", and yet the rate of mental retardation in the adult population seems to be about 0.6% So it really doesn't seem that many people had trouble solving it. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00040023.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00040023.htm
- snissn 9y agoWould they break up families? To me that is the most immoral part of immigration policies and having borders.
- JoeAltmaier 9y agoKind of. The whole family could go back. Or they could decide to leave one behind. It was sort of "Sophie's choice" as I understand it.
- diminish 9y ago>> As crude as the puzzle test may seem today, it reflected the belief that healthy immigrants should be admitted Jigsaw puzzles can be quite tricky, beyond the simple wooden one used in the Ellis Island Immigrant test. The most difficult Jigsaw puzzles I have seen are the ones made from Pictures of Picasso [1], Edward Munch [2], Salvador Dali and other modern painters [1] Picasso: https://www.zestoy.com/oiloncanvas/jigsaw-puzzle/zmtlltgg/1/girl-with-a-mandolin-by-pablo-picasso.html https://www.zestoy.com/oiloncanvas/jigsaw-puzzle/zmtlltgg/1/... [2] Munch: https://www.zestoy.com/oiloncanvas/jigsaw-puzzle/zoxpwnju/1/the-kiss-by-edvard-munch.html https://www.zestoy.com/oiloncanvas/jigsaw-puzzle/zoxpwnju/1/... [3] Ellis Island: https://www.zestoy.com/englishinterstellar/jigsaw-puzzle/zpfmdrso/1/ellis-island-immigrant-test.html https://www.zestoy.com/englishinterstellar/jigsaw-puzzle/zpf...
- andrewclunn 9y agoI'm having a tough time imagining not being able to solve this in almost no time flat. Really, if you can't figure out a 4 piece puzzle... That so many here are remarking that this was somehow wrong (either morally or practically), yeah my 2 year old daughter has a fair chance of solving this one.
- wavefunction 9y agoThey were just testing immigrant fingers for aptitude on assembly lines. I don't see why y'all are knocking the test, except for maybe the claim it measured 'IQ' (which is a questionable concept in its own right.)
- JackFr 9y agoThis is at least the second article in few weeks of self-congratulatory, virtue-signaling-masked-as-history we've seen from Smithsonian. From this article I see two takeaways: 1) Despite the tome of the article, this test seems reasonable. If we take as given that we don't want to accept adults mentally incapable of caring for themselves, this test seems reasonable, and the described level of exclusions, less than 1000 for over a million immigrants, it seems very reasonable. 2) HUMILITY. The people operating Ellis Island 100 years ago were as self-assured of their beliefs as is everyone reading this article today. Consider how foolish we will look in 100 years.
- maldusiecle 9y agoDefinitely super great to dismiss any appeal to morals or decency as "virtue signaling." Definitely not the sort of nihilism that corrodes and destroys civil society.
- JackFr 9y agoDefining virtue signaling as the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue. The tone and substance of this article is not to illuminate the practices of the past in a relevant historical context, but rather to denigrate them and celebrate our own era. "Look how far we've come."
- openasocket 9y agoWhat changes would you make to this article to make it "illuminate the practices of the past in a relevant historical context" instead of denigrating those practices? I also don't see any reference to the modern era, could you point out some quotes celebrating "how far we've come"?
- maldusiecle 9y agoOn the contrary, this article gives plenty of historical context: its entire purpose is to place the entry test in the context, first, of the tests which preceded it, and second, of the ideologies (eugenicist) which it reflected. If all reflection on how far society has come are mere "virtue signaling," how can you have historical discussions on moral issues at all? You'd have to start with the premise that moral progress is impossible. I'm not throwing around the word "nihilism," I'm using it because I think it's clear that the implication of your style of argument is the destruction of any kind of moral progress. Any society that is to progress morally must be able to define what it is progressing from.
- libpcap 9y agoTests like that need to be done for H1-B visa.
- mydpy 9y ago"We're going to call it 'extreme vetting'."
- gjkood 9y ago> Within a decade, though, anti-immigrant, eugenic and racist forces would persuade Congress to pass the Immigration Act of 1924, which dramatically cut back immigration of Italians, Eastern European Jews and other groups considered undesirable. I guess people with names like: Leo Szilard Enrico Fermi Albert Einstein Robert Oppenheimer and so on. For more such foreign names please refer to the Manhattan Project bios [1] [1] http://www.atomicheritage.org/bios http://www.atomicheritage.org/bios