5 ms·

Qualcomm Report on LTE for Drones

56 points by SkyDrone 9y ago

nitin_flanker 9y ago
On a side note: Qualcomm is the top patent filer in LTE domain before Intel, Samsung, and Ericsson. [1] https://www.greyb.com/top-50-innovative-companies-of-4g-lte/ https://www.greyb.com/top-50-innovative-companies-of-4g-lte/
- scientific_ass 9y ago
  This seems quite obvious now, looking at how much Qualcomm is involved in IoT. I'm surprised to hear that LG is leading Intel though.
- pyvpx 9y ago
  patents are basically a form of currency now. sad. edit: or rather, patents are the money, licensing is the currency.
  - scientific_ass 9y ago
    You're right on both side. Parents are currency when it comes to occupying a market or deterring competitors.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    To me they look more and more like the warheads of a MAD setup.
zkms 9y ago
> A network in communication with UAS must support a mechanism for intercept by authorized parties in the event of an emergency. This intercept could be simply for status information, for transmission of exclusion zones, or for forced landing in extreme cases. Oh man, lawful intercept features for UAVs, this sure is gonna be interesting.
- andybak 9y ago
  Leaving aside the 'should they be allowed to question' - let's hope they succeed in making unauthorized access impossible. That would really suck as a remote exploit. Impossible... Hmmmm. Not a word you hear used very often in security circles...
  - chillingeffect 9y ago
    Internet of flying things.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Internet of Flying High-Velocity Bricks...
fest 9y ago
I hope the next revision of MAVLink (one of the most common message serialization/transport protocols used for UAVs) will have built-in encryption. While systems can encrypt MAVLink messages in transit, I have not seen it actually done- everyone is relying on security of the physical layer (i.e. obscurity of telemetry radio frequency hopping/channel negotiation, WiFi security). So in most implementations, MAVLink messages are actually transmitted in plaintext, over plain TCP/UDP connections.
- SkyDrone 9y ago
  In our product "Sky Drone FPV" we encrypt the MAVLink channel via DTLS.
  - fest 9y ago
    Cool, kudos for taking a responsible approach!
  - fest 9y ago
    I understand it might be a trade secret, but what LTE modem do you use on receiver side? I would like to use LTE more, but finding suitable modems for embedded uses has been a challenge.
    - SkyDrone 9y ago
      True, LTE modem protocols are a bit of a mess. You can get a good overview here: https://aleksander.es/data/FOSDEM2013%20-%20Mobile%20broadband%20modem%20control%20protocols.pdf https://aleksander.es/data/FOSDEM2013%20-%20Mobile%20broadba...
- mburshteyn 9y ago
  We're working on this at CryptoMove: https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/news/2017/03/29/news-release-cbp-and-st-award-200k-san-mateo-start https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/news/2017/03/29/n...
- cnnsucks 9y ago
ipunchghosts 9y ago
All I want to know is when can I fly my DJI phantom via cell network?
- SkyDrone 9y ago
  Unfortunately DJI is not very open to third-party integration (at least for their consumer drones). So while you will get unlimited range with our LTE based Sky Drone FPV system, controlling a DJI Phantom is not possible. Any other drone with open serial telemetry port will work though - like all the PX4/APM based drones.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Off topic question if you may happen to know: I'm looking to invest ($10k or so) in one or more publicly traded small cap drone companies - do you happen to know of any? I'm not necessarily looking for drone manufacturers, but perhaps more so regular companies that are using drones to enhance their traditional business (aerial photography would be one example, but too obvious).
sonium 9y ago
Here is a video of a home-built setup based on Raspberry-Pi [1] and an opensource software stack on a fixed-wing aircraft. For use on quadcopters the problem is the latency. Analog FPV systems can achieve around ~20ms latency. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAuPoiAmHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAuPoiAmHE
- SkyDrone 9y ago
  You are right, with the current state oft LTE and a digital video pipeline we are not yet competitive to analog latency. On our Sky Drone FPV system we get a glass-to-glass latency of ~150ms which is good enough for controlling a drone at some altitude. It is not good enough for competitive racing though. But I am confident the time will come. The next gen cellular network aka "5G" will reduce the network latency significantly and with some new technologies on image sensors (super high framerate, global shutter, ...), I am confident that it will eventually make analog setups obsolete.
- aphextron 9y ago
  5G networks will be coming online in the next 3-4 years. It will have latency in the 1ms range. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/02/5g-imt-2020-specs/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/02/5g-im...
mr337 9y ago
This looks very interesting and I have two questions: 1. How much cost in data are we talking about? There are some benchmarks on what 10min of video uses. Are you able to get cell data cheaper than a normal consumer? 2. With a 107 certificate, is it legal to fly this past VLOS and without a visual observer? Trying to see how this works in the US.
- foobarbecue 9y ago
  No, 107 does not permit flying beyond VLOS. That requires extra permission from the FAA through a waiver. (I have my part 107 remote pilot's license)
foobarbecue 9y ago
I watched SkyDrone lie for a couple of years about how far song their supposed product was, so am kinda surprised to see them back in the limelight. Their website said "shipping next month" for over a year IIRC. I guess that sort of thing is the new normal...
- foobarbecue 9y ago
  Actually, does anyone have any evidence that skydrone has ever shipped anything?
  - ganoushoreilly 9y ago
    Looks like /u/skydrone might be able to share more info or shed some light?
  - SkyDrone 9y ago
    There is currently a discussion including some of our customers on diydrones: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/sky-drone-fpv-2-now-available-for-usd-299 http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/sky-drone-fpv-2-now-avai...
    - foobarbecue 9y ago
      Where are the customers? I've flipped through a few of the comment pages and didn't see any. I can't believe the diydrones.com interface is still so crappy all these years later! EDIT: I see Kevin Klemens on P3 and indeed he seems happy with the purchase. Congrats to SkyDrone on creating a real thing and selling it!
- SkyDrone 9y ago
  You are right, we indeed had some problems with our first product "Sky Drone FPV 1". Our new products are on stock and shipping though. Some background of what happened: https://www.skydrone.aero/blogs/news/the-sky-drone-journey-since-indiegogo-3-years-ago https://www.skydrone.aero/blogs/news/the-sky-drone-journey-s...
mirages 9y ago
1. Does the drone attempts to automatically land in case of loss of connectivity ? 2. Do you plan selling the drone with ready-to-use sims ? 3. Is it possible to set up the drone not to fly too far away from the controller position ?

56 points by SkyDrone 9y ago

On a side note: Qualcomm is the top patent filer in LTE domain before Intel, Samsung, and Ericsson. [1] https://www.greyb.com/top-50-innovative-companies-of-4g-lte/ https://www.greyb.com/top-50-innovative-companies-of-4g-lte/

scientific_ass 9y ago
This seems quite obvious now, looking at how much Qualcomm is involved in IoT. I'm surprised to hear that LG is leading Intel though.
pyvpx 9y ago
patents are basically a form of currency now. sad. edit: or rather, patents are the money, licensing is the currency.
- scientific_ass 9y ago
  You're right on both side. Parents are currency when it comes to occupying a market or deterring competitors.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  To me they look more and more like the warheads of a MAD setup.

zkms 9y ago

> A network in communication with UAS must support a mechanism for intercept by authorized parties in the event of an emergency. This intercept could be simply for status information, for transmission of exclusion zones, or for forced landing in extreme cases. Oh man, lawful intercept features for UAVs, this sure is gonna be interesting.

andybak 9y ago
Leaving aside the 'should they be allowed to question' - let's hope they succeed in making unauthorized access impossible. That would really suck as a remote exploit. Impossible... Hmmmm. Not a word you hear used very often in security circles...
- chillingeffect 9y ago
  Internet of flying things.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Internet of Flying High-Velocity Bricks...

fest 9y ago

I hope the next revision of MAVLink (one of the most common message serialization/transport protocols used for UAVs) will have built-in encryption. While systems can encrypt MAVLink messages in transit, I have not seen it actually done- everyone is relying on security of the physical layer (i.e. obscurity of telemetry radio frequency hopping/channel negotiation, WiFi security). So in most implementations, MAVLink messages are actually transmitted in plaintext, over plain TCP/UDP connections.

SkyDrone 9y ago
In our product "Sky Drone FPV" we encrypt the MAVLink channel via DTLS.
- fest 9y ago
  Cool, kudos for taking a responsible approach!
- fest 9y ago
  I understand it might be a trade secret, but what LTE modem do you use on receiver side? I would like to use LTE more, but finding suitable modems for embedded uses has been a challenge.
  - SkyDrone 9y ago
    True, LTE modem protocols are a bit of a mess. You can get a good overview here: https://aleksander.es/data/FOSDEM2013%20-%20Mobile%20broadband%20modem%20control%20protocols.pdf https://aleksander.es/data/FOSDEM2013%20-%20Mobile%20broadba...
mburshteyn 9y ago
We're working on this at CryptoMove: https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/news/2017/03/29/news-release-cbp-and-st-award-200k-san-mateo-start https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/news/2017/03/29/n...
cnnsucks 9y ago

ipunchghosts 9y ago

All I want to know is when can I fly my DJI phantom via cell network?

SkyDrone 9y ago
Unfortunately DJI is not very open to third-party integration (at least for their consumer drones). So while you will get unlimited range with our LTE based Sky Drone FPV system, controlling a DJI Phantom is not possible. Any other drone with open serial telemetry port will work though - like all the PX4/APM based drones.
- mistermann 9y ago
  Off topic question if you may happen to know: I'm looking to invest ($10k or so) in one or more publicly traded small cap drone companies - do you happen to know of any? I'm not necessarily looking for drone manufacturers, but perhaps more so regular companies that are using drones to enhance their traditional business (aerial photography would be one example, but too obvious).

sonium 9y ago

Here is a video of a home-built setup based on Raspberry-Pi [1] and an opensource software stack on a fixed-wing aircraft. For use on quadcopters the problem is the latency. Analog FPV systems can achieve around ~20ms latency. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAuPoiAmHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAuPoiAmHE

SkyDrone 9y ago
You are right, with the current state oft LTE and a digital video pipeline we are not yet competitive to analog latency. On our Sky Drone FPV system we get a glass-to-glass latency of ~150ms which is good enough for controlling a drone at some altitude. It is not good enough for competitive racing though. But I am confident the time will come. The next gen cellular network aka "5G" will reduce the network latency significantly and with some new technologies on image sensors (super high framerate, global shutter, ...), I am confident that it will eventually make analog setups obsolete.
aphextron 9y ago
5G networks will be coming online in the next 3-4 years. It will have latency in the 1ms range. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/02/5g-imt-2020-specs/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/02/5g-im...

mr337 9y ago

This looks very interesting and I have two questions: 1. How much cost in data are we talking about? There are some benchmarks on what 10min of video uses. Are you able to get cell data cheaper than a normal consumer? 2. With a 107 certificate, is it legal to fly this past VLOS and without a visual observer? Trying to see how this works in the US.

foobarbecue 9y ago
No, 107 does not permit flying beyond VLOS. That requires extra permission from the FAA through a waiver. (I have my part 107 remote pilot's license)

foobarbecue 9y ago

I watched SkyDrone lie for a couple of years about how far song their supposed product was, so am kinda surprised to see them back in the limelight. Their website said "shipping next month" for over a year IIRC. I guess that sort of thing is the new normal...

foobarbecue 9y ago
Actually, does anyone have any evidence that skydrone has ever shipped anything?
- ganoushoreilly 9y ago
  Looks like /u/skydrone might be able to share more info or shed some light?
- SkyDrone 9y ago
  There is currently a discussion including some of our customers on diydrones: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/sky-drone-fpv-2-now-available-for-usd-299 http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/sky-drone-fpv-2-now-avai...
  - foobarbecue 9y ago
    Where are the customers? I've flipped through a few of the comment pages and didn't see any. I can't believe the diydrones.com interface is still so crappy all these years later! EDIT: I see Kevin Klemens on P3 and indeed he seems happy with the purchase. Congrats to SkyDrone on creating a real thing and selling it!
SkyDrone 9y ago
You are right, we indeed had some problems with our first product "Sky Drone FPV 1". Our new products are on stock and shipping though. Some background of what happened: https://www.skydrone.aero/blogs/news/the-sky-drone-journey-since-indiegogo-3-years-ago https://www.skydrone.aero/blogs/news/the-sky-drone-journey-s...

mirages 9y ago

1. Does the drone attempts to automatically land in case of loss of connectivity ? 2. Do you plan selling the drone with ready-to-use sims ? 3. Is it possible to set up the drone not to fly too far away from the controller position ?