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There's lots of talk about tapping into the 'green belt' to allow more residential building. Something needs to be done though, soon and carefully. The market'

There's lots of talk about tapping into the 'green belt' to allow more residential building. Something needs to be done though, soon and carefully. The market's getting out of control. And often what you don't hear is the 'spillovers'. 1.Where a person from toronto sells their home for a lot, then travels to a town outside toronto to retire/settle down. Local residents/new home owners can't compete with these buyers with so much capital(especially in areas with supressed/depressed employement). 2.Where people give up trying to afford living in Toronto and move out of town to commute. This has caused rents in Hamilton/Burlington etc to skyrocket.

Waterluvian 9y ago
I live an hour from Toronto. Single detached homes closing prices went up 40% since last April. It's an unsustainable bubble.
- snowwindwaves 9y ago
  Nope just catching up to the valuations in Vancouver, New York, London, Tokyo and other desirable international cities.
  - acchow 9y ago
    New York and London definitely attract global talent. Toronto is not like them. This is a speculation bubble.
    - sanswork 9y ago
      Toronto is pretty cheap for a city of its size.
      - ziikutv 9y ago
        And pretty awesome. You will appreciate it 100% more if you visit our capitol.
        uiri 9y ago
        Comparing Toronto with Ottawa is simply not a fair comparison. It is like comparing New York City with Albany or Seattle with Olympia. The City of Ottawa includes the core of Ottawa plus all of its suburbs (excluding the Quebec side) and does not even top a million people. Everything is spread out and suburban such that our capitol is more like a bunch of closely spaced towns than anything resembling an actual city. The City of Toronto (which excludes most of the suburbs) is, on its own, triple the population of Ottawa. The Greater Toronto Area is over 5x the population of the National Capital Region.
        ziikutv 9y ago
        I think your points are definitely valid if I was being objective. But.. that was just a subjective statement :)
        acchow 9y ago
        I spent most of my life in Toronto. I'm alright, thanks tho :)
  - derefr 9y ago
    I'd guess less "catching up" than "shunted away from"—Vancouver specifically. (Vancouver passed a foreign home-buyer tax; suddenly the housing market there began to cool down. But, very likely, all that money didn't just stop trying to find a place to "land"; it just skipped over Vancouver for the next-easiest city to invest into.) If Toronto enacts similar measures, the money will just move somewhere else again.
    - msie 9y ago
      The housing market in Vancouver is heating up again. The tax does little to stop non-foreign buyers.
      - CountSessine 9y ago
        Again, an oversimplification. Condos, especially 3 bedroom and 4 bedroom condos are on fire right now, because families need a place to live and those are the only homes they can afford. Detached houses east of Cambie are dead right now; all the foreign investors are in Toronto.
- ziikutv 9y ago
  Please don't say that... I am hoping to rake in the giant ROIs...
- ahassan 9y ago
  And here I was hoping that I'd be able to afford a place in Waterloo eventually (I've already given up hope for a home in the GTA).
lacampbell 9y ago
It's the same issue in NZ and Australia. All three countries are addicted to high immigration levels and rapid population growth, in order to grow the GDP. This will inevitably have effects on housing affordability and sprawl. If you try and hem in development like you say, the house prices will just increase even faster. I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. You either need to deal with an aging population that isn't growing fast, or you need to deal with a housing crisis.
- sanswork 9y ago
  The biggest problem both cities have is that everyone seems to only want a detached house. Condos are cheap in Toronto and they pump them out constantly but everyone still wants a fully detached house.
  - Pxtl 9y ago
    To me the frustrating part is that condos aren't cheap. The housing crisis wouldn't look so awful if you could get a 3-bedroom in a decently located mid rise for a half-million dollars... But instead they're all tiny one bedrooms. Which is just insane.
    - sanswork 9y ago
      Plenty of larger units towards the edge of the city. The core is for DINKs.
  - CountSessine 9y ago
    Condos are cheap in Toronto Not for long. In Vancouver condos were pretty cheap, at least until the average detached house topped $1 million. That puts them out of reach of middle class families and then everyone is competing for those condos. 3 bedroom condos are approaching $1 million now.
  - hourislate 9y ago
    What do you consider cheap? 500k for 400 sq/ft? Toronto has some of the highest sq/ft prices in the world. There is nothing cheap. If you have ever been to Toronto you will notice that most of the homes are semi's and only outside of the city in what can be considered the suburbs (Etobicoke, etc) will you find detached homes. Lots are no more than 20-25 ft wide in the city.
allengeorge 9y ago
Or maybe people should adjust their perception of what "residential housing" looks and feels like. The concept of large detached single-family lots is unsustainable. Much better would be 2-3 floor row houses or 3-4 floor midrises with plenty of green space in walkable distance.
- taurath 9y ago
  Unsustainable, or unsustainable in the face of people using property as an investment rather than a place to live? Foreign investment has destroyed Vancouvers affordability. The city is half full of rich Chinese driving Audis, and nearly all real estate signs come in Chinese. The same is happening down the west coast of the US as well as Toronto now. We need to prioritize affordability - and not just subsidies for the poor. The middle is being hollowed out, and only those with family history in the area are affording anything. Basically if you aren't on the ladder when it shot up to the sky you are screwed now.
  - s0rce 9y ago
    Foreign investment might be the problem in Vancouver but the situation is not the same across the west coast. The SF Bay area market isn't dominated by foreign investment, people make more money. In the end population increases but the number of detached homes does not therefore a smaller percentage of the population we'll be able to afford them and they will be now expensive. You simply can't expect everyone to have a house in a city. Move to rural Kansas or Oregon
    - wavefunction 9y ago
      You don't see the connection between "make more money" and asset inflation in prices of homes? You act like you're (Bay area) living like kings. I pay moderate amount for a nice place in a less happening tech but far more pleasant city, and I don't have to live like an animal.
  - msie 9y ago
    "The city is half full of rich Chinese driving Audis, and nearly all real estate signs come in Chinese." No, this is not true. You must not live in Vancouver. It is really sad that this myth continues to have a life of its own. I mostly blame the press and politicians for perpetuating it. I also blame everyone for lazy thinking. Latest reports peg foreign ownership at 5%. People seem to overlook that the majority of buyers are Canadians who want to live in Vancouver, the favourable mortgage rates, and the geography of Vancouver which makes it hard to build more SD houses.
mattbettinson 9y ago
My parents live right downtown Burlington and little bungalows are selling for 1.4 now right beside them. It's absolutely insane
hourislate 9y ago
>There's lots of talk about tapping into the 'green belt' to allow more residential building. How do you propose these people commute? There are no roads and Ontario can't seem to find the money to build any. Your commute from the Greenbelt to downtown TO could take 2 hours or more. Just look at the folks coming from Barrie and the nightmare they have to drive in. Most of the work is in Toronto so many have no choice. Maybe if the Gov would stop the 200 billion in foreign fx that gets laundered in Canadian Real Estate people could afford a house in Toronto.
- sanswork 9y ago
  I don't agree with touching the green belt but it starts a lot closer to the city then you are making it seem. Stouffville is partially covered by it and you can get to the city in an hour from there using public transit. You can't magic up space for houses in the city. There is always going to be more people wanting a fully detached house than there is space for. So you either grow out and have people doing multi-hour commutes/try to build new citiy centres like Sydney is trying or accept the reality that not everyone can have a detached house and grow up.
flycaliguy 9y ago
It's true. I live in London Ontario, 2 hours down the 401, and it's shocking how the home prices have jumped. We are a medium sized city that often feels more kinship with Michigan and Windsor as far as our economy goes. I had different plans than becoming part of a retirement community for TO real estate lotto winners. I'm trying to start a family and it feels like a race now.

Waterluvian 9y ago

I live an hour from Toronto. Single detached homes closing prices went up 40% since last April. It's an unsustainable bubble.

snowwindwaves 9y ago
Nope just catching up to the valuations in Vancouver, New York, London, Tokyo and other desirable international cities.
- acchow 9y ago
  New York and London definitely attract global talent. Toronto is not like them. This is a speculation bubble.
  - sanswork 9y ago
    Toronto is pretty cheap for a city of its size.
    - ziikutv 9y ago
      And pretty awesome. You will appreciate it 100% more if you visit our capitol.
      - uiri 9y ago
        Comparing Toronto with Ottawa is simply not a fair comparison. It is like comparing New York City with Albany or Seattle with Olympia. The City of Ottawa includes the core of Ottawa plus all of its suburbs (excluding the Quebec side) and does not even top a million people. Everything is spread out and suburban such that our capitol is more like a bunch of closely spaced towns than anything resembling an actual city. The City of Toronto (which excludes most of the suburbs) is, on its own, triple the population of Ottawa. The Greater Toronto Area is over 5x the population of the National Capital Region.
        ziikutv 9y ago
        I think your points are definitely valid if I was being objective. But.. that was just a subjective statement :)
      - acchow 9y ago
        I spent most of my life in Toronto. I'm alright, thanks tho :)
- derefr 9y ago
  I'd guess less "catching up" than "shunted away from"—Vancouver specifically. (Vancouver passed a foreign home-buyer tax; suddenly the housing market there began to cool down. But, very likely, all that money didn't just stop trying to find a place to "land"; it just skipped over Vancouver for the next-easiest city to invest into.) If Toronto enacts similar measures, the money will just move somewhere else again.
  - msie 9y ago
    The housing market in Vancouver is heating up again. The tax does little to stop non-foreign buyers.
    - CountSessine 9y ago
      Again, an oversimplification. Condos, especially 3 bedroom and 4 bedroom condos are on fire right now, because families need a place to live and those are the only homes they can afford. Detached houses east of Cambie are dead right now; all the foreign investors are in Toronto.
ziikutv 9y ago
Please don't say that... I am hoping to rake in the giant ROIs...
ahassan 9y ago
And here I was hoping that I'd be able to afford a place in Waterloo eventually (I've already given up hope for a home in the GTA).

lacampbell 9y ago

It's the same issue in NZ and Australia. All three countries are addicted to high immigration levels and rapid population growth, in order to grow the GDP. This will inevitably have effects on housing affordability and sprawl. If you try and hem in development like you say, the house prices will just increase even faster. I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. You either need to deal with an aging population that isn't growing fast, or you need to deal with a housing crisis.

sanswork 9y ago
The biggest problem both cities have is that everyone seems to only want a detached house. Condos are cheap in Toronto and they pump them out constantly but everyone still wants a fully detached house.
- Pxtl 9y ago
  To me the frustrating part is that condos aren't cheap. The housing crisis wouldn't look so awful if you could get a 3-bedroom in a decently located mid rise for a half-million dollars... But instead they're all tiny one bedrooms. Which is just insane.
  - sanswork 9y ago
    Plenty of larger units towards the edge of the city. The core is for DINKs.
- CountSessine 9y ago
  Condos are cheap in Toronto Not for long. In Vancouver condos were pretty cheap, at least until the average detached house topped $1 million. That puts them out of reach of middle class families and then everyone is competing for those condos. 3 bedroom condos are approaching $1 million now.
- hourislate 9y ago
  What do you consider cheap? 500k for 400 sq/ft? Toronto has some of the highest sq/ft prices in the world. There is nothing cheap. If you have ever been to Toronto you will notice that most of the homes are semi's and only outside of the city in what can be considered the suburbs (Etobicoke, etc) will you find detached homes. Lots are no more than 20-25 ft wide in the city.

allengeorge 9y ago

Or maybe people should adjust their perception of what "residential housing" looks and feels like. The concept of large detached single-family lots is unsustainable. Much better would be 2-3 floor row houses or 3-4 floor midrises with plenty of green space in walkable distance.

taurath 9y ago
Unsustainable, or unsustainable in the face of people using property as an investment rather than a place to live? Foreign investment has destroyed Vancouvers affordability. The city is half full of rich Chinese driving Audis, and nearly all real estate signs come in Chinese. The same is happening down the west coast of the US as well as Toronto now. We need to prioritize affordability - and not just subsidies for the poor. The middle is being hollowed out, and only those with family history in the area are affording anything. Basically if you aren't on the ladder when it shot up to the sky you are screwed now.
- s0rce 9y ago
  Foreign investment might be the problem in Vancouver but the situation is not the same across the west coast. The SF Bay area market isn't dominated by foreign investment, people make more money. In the end population increases but the number of detached homes does not therefore a smaller percentage of the population we'll be able to afford them and they will be now expensive. You simply can't expect everyone to have a house in a city. Move to rural Kansas or Oregon
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    You don't see the connection between "make more money" and asset inflation in prices of homes? You act like you're (Bay area) living like kings. I pay moderate amount for a nice place in a less happening tech but far more pleasant city, and I don't have to live like an animal.
- msie 9y ago
  "The city is half full of rich Chinese driving Audis, and nearly all real estate signs come in Chinese." No, this is not true. You must not live in Vancouver. It is really sad that this myth continues to have a life of its own. I mostly blame the press and politicians for perpetuating it. I also blame everyone for lazy thinking. Latest reports peg foreign ownership at 5%. People seem to overlook that the majority of buyers are Canadians who want to live in Vancouver, the favourable mortgage rates, and the geography of Vancouver which makes it hard to build more SD houses.

mattbettinson 9y ago

My parents live right downtown Burlington and little bungalows are selling for 1.4 now right beside them. It's absolutely insane

hourislate 9y ago

>There's lots of talk about tapping into the 'green belt' to allow more residential building. How do you propose these people commute? There are no roads and Ontario can't seem to find the money to build any. Your commute from the Greenbelt to downtown TO could take 2 hours or more. Just look at the folks coming from Barrie and the nightmare they have to drive in. Most of the work is in Toronto so many have no choice. Maybe if the Gov would stop the 200 billion in foreign fx that gets laundered in Canadian Real Estate people could afford a house in Toronto.

sanswork 9y ago
I don't agree with touching the green belt but it starts a lot closer to the city then you are making it seem. Stouffville is partially covered by it and you can get to the city in an hour from there using public transit. You can't magic up space for houses in the city. There is always going to be more people wanting a fully detached house than there is space for. So you either grow out and have people doing multi-hour commutes/try to build new citiy centres like Sydney is trying or accept the reality that not everyone can have a detached house and grow up.

flycaliguy 9y ago

It's true. I live in London Ontario, 2 hours down the 401, and it's shocking how the home prices have jumped. We are a medium sized city that often feels more kinship with Michigan and Windsor as far as our economy goes. I had different plans than becoming part of a retirement community for TO real estate lotto winners. I'm trying to start a family and it feels like a race now.