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Uber seems to be the logical extreme of 'easier to beg forgiveness' mentality; there are no rules (explicit or implicit) or ethical boundaries that are not subj

Uber seems to be the logical extreme of 'easier to beg forgiveness' mentality; there are no rules (explicit or implicit) or ethical boundaries that are not subject to be broken in pursuit of their goals.

Consultant32452 10y ago
I dunno man, I think Uber is just in the HN wheelhouse and has been stealing our focus lately. Wells Fargo illegally signed people up for countless credit lines they didn't ask for. HSBC got a slap on the wrist for laundering billions in drug money. People in power routinely break the rules and there's basically no penalty.
- pteredactyl 10y ago
  Amen. Not until Executives are criminally liable will there be any change to this disgusting behavior.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- NovaX 10y ago
  Google actively assisted in selling illegal pharmaceuticals due to the lucrative ad revenue. It was coordinated and driven by the chief executives.
  - Consultant32452 10y ago
    I would put this in the same category as Uber breaking the taxi regulations. In short, I welcome it. I find the current system of requiring prescriptions for so many drugs to be morally repugnant. I support anyone who wants to break those laws, even if they're doing it for completely selfish reasons.
  - muro 10y ago
    I haven't followed it, but weren't they the same pharmaceuticals (aka not fake, same manufacturer, just cheaper), from across the border?
    - 55555 10y ago
      The media wrote good aricles about the conman who informed on Google, who claimed to be selling vials of nothing but water and labeling them "HGH" etc. However, frankly, there are still scams being advertised on Adwords and I would argue that we should separate the scam category from the illegal pharma category. The truth is that the vast majority of the half billion dollars they were penalized for earning was payments from companies who were advertising and fulfilling generic drugs from cheaper countries such as India (or even New Zealand!). The people running these companies may be 'criminals' -- you could make that case -- but I have an easier time making the case that they are running an ethical business that helps lower and middle class americans get the medicine they need at a fraction of the cost (and sometimes simply without explaining to a third-party that their dick doesn't work).
  - askvictor 10y ago
    Many new economy companies push the boundaries or break the rules sometimes; for uber it seems their reason for existence.
- sjg007 10y ago
  Few years ago Google, apple and others engaged in antipoaching agreements.
  - Consultant32452 10y ago
    Damn, I had completely forgotten about that. Really puts Uber's shadiness in a different light. Obviously if they broke the law they should be punished, but it makes it harder to see this lawsuit as a good vs evil.
- astrodust 10y ago
  There's lots of penalties, like having to spend millions in legal fees defending your billions in fraud and spending several days in a stuffy court-room trying not to trip up in your own web of lies!
- watwut 10y ago
  The difference is that Wells Fargo does not brag about its crooked nature nearly as much as Uber (or its sympathizers), at least on this forums. Not many people are openly sad that more companies are not more like Wells Fargo (because hackers mentality, maaan) nor them being praised as role model as Uber was. HN is visited by people in tech who are naturally interested more in what happens with technology companies. Therefore there is more focus on Uber then on Wells Fargo.
  - mangodrunk 10y ago
    >The difference is that Wells Fargo does not brag about its crooked nature nearly as much as Uber How does bragging make a difference? A crime is a crime regardless of bragging or not. I think your second paragraph makes a lot more sense.
    - watwut 10y ago
      1.) Uber was praised as role model and people tried to mimic them. That has impact on behavior or other companies and founders in tech community. Crooks being praised and rewarded means more crooks in the future. People who think this is bad thing, wants (and have absolute right) to put attention on previously praised crooks so that opposite message (it is bad behavior and you might get punished) gets attention too. 2.) If you brag about your success and break-the-rules-strategy, people like you less and get more angry with you. Once you get caught, they get happy, talk about it and wants to see you punished more then as if you did not bragged. That is how humans work.
      - mangodrunk 10y ago
        I agree, that rewarded bad behavior could lead others to follow. But, we have much bigger issues going on, such as the banking industry and all the mess that it has caused all the while getting rewarded for it. Bragging isn't the problem, if what they're doing is illegal, then it should be handled accordingly. They might be thinking that they are thinking out of the box, and you might have to break some laws, but those laws are actually blocking progress. So, not necessarily a bad thing depending on the law being broken.
- askvictor 10y ago
  I think the difference is that Wells Fargo and it's ilk already have a shit ton of money and will stop at nothing to make more. Startup philosophy generally involves breaking rules somewhere along the way, but it strikes me as so deeply ingrained into Uber's culture as to be an end in itself.
- lmm 10y ago
  > HSBC got a slap on the wrist for laundering billions in drug money. AIUI there's no evidence that actually happened. It's more like they were marking some transactions as low-risk rather than medium-risk when they should have been following guidelines that allowed the transactions to be considered as low-risk or medium-risk, but under slightly different criteria.
nullnilvoid 10y ago
As much as I want to see an immoral company to crash and burn, the presented evidences so far have been circumstantial. There is a lack of direct evidences that Uber was stealing IP, as opposed to Levandowski.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  How did the manufacturer of the LIDAR component get the same exact design for Otto that they had built for Waymo? I think it's pretty obvious what happened but there are a lot of folks who want to whistle and look the other way.
  - xyzzy_plugh 10y ago
    Have you ever dealt with vendors? They'll happily "help" you design boards using solutions from their other customers. They'll let you run some sample fabs on your competitors equipment. They'll accidentally put your design docs in the same ftp folder as your competitors. There are a lot of ways and they're more obvious than what you imply.
    - bb611 10y ago
      Some will, some won't. Since everyone basically agrees that Levandowski downloaded these files from google, Occam's Razor suggests that the guy who knowingly stole the files provided them along. Doesn't rule out a different sort of malfeasance, but certainly it's worth exploring that avenue to the fullest.
- andygates 10y ago
  > the presented evidences so far have been circumstantial ...and that's what makes all Uber/Lev's avoidance look as damning as it is. If the stuff they're not saying cleared them, they'd present more of it - enough to make their case.
slackingoff2017 10y ago
Shady stuff happens at a lot of companies, Travis pissed somebody off, probably a VP, and didn't pay them enough to keep quiet. You know those golden parachutes that piss everyone off? They give you those in return for promising not talk about anything shady going on near the top

Consultant32452 10y ago

I dunno man, I think Uber is just in the HN wheelhouse and has been stealing our focus lately. Wells Fargo illegally signed people up for countless credit lines they didn't ask for. HSBC got a slap on the wrist for laundering billions in drug money. People in power routinely break the rules and there's basically no penalty.

pteredactyl 10y ago
Amen. Not until Executives are criminally liable will there be any change to this disgusting behavior.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
NovaX 10y ago
Google actively assisted in selling illegal pharmaceuticals due to the lucrative ad revenue. It was coordinated and driven by the chief executives.
- Consultant32452 10y ago
  I would put this in the same category as Uber breaking the taxi regulations. In short, I welcome it. I find the current system of requiring prescriptions for so many drugs to be morally repugnant. I support anyone who wants to break those laws, even if they're doing it for completely selfish reasons.
- muro 10y ago
  I haven't followed it, but weren't they the same pharmaceuticals (aka not fake, same manufacturer, just cheaper), from across the border?
  - 55555 10y ago
    The media wrote good aricles about the conman who informed on Google, who claimed to be selling vials of nothing but water and labeling them "HGH" etc. However, frankly, there are still scams being advertised on Adwords and I would argue that we should separate the scam category from the illegal pharma category. The truth is that the vast majority of the half billion dollars they were penalized for earning was payments from companies who were advertising and fulfilling generic drugs from cheaper countries such as India (or even New Zealand!). The people running these companies may be 'criminals' -- you could make that case -- but I have an easier time making the case that they are running an ethical business that helps lower and middle class americans get the medicine they need at a fraction of the cost (and sometimes simply without explaining to a third-party that their dick doesn't work).
- askvictor 10y ago
  Many new economy companies push the boundaries or break the rules sometimes; for uber it seems their reason for existence.
sjg007 10y ago
Few years ago Google, apple and others engaged in antipoaching agreements.
- Consultant32452 10y ago
  Damn, I had completely forgotten about that. Really puts Uber's shadiness in a different light. Obviously if they broke the law they should be punished, but it makes it harder to see this lawsuit as a good vs evil.
astrodust 10y ago
There's lots of penalties, like having to spend millions in legal fees defending your billions in fraud and spending several days in a stuffy court-room trying not to trip up in your own web of lies!
watwut 10y ago
The difference is that Wells Fargo does not brag about its crooked nature nearly as much as Uber (or its sympathizers), at least on this forums. Not many people are openly sad that more companies are not more like Wells Fargo (because hackers mentality, maaan) nor them being praised as role model as Uber was. HN is visited by people in tech who are naturally interested more in what happens with technology companies. Therefore there is more focus on Uber then on Wells Fargo.
- mangodrunk 10y ago
  >The difference is that Wells Fargo does not brag about its crooked nature nearly as much as Uber How does bragging make a difference? A crime is a crime regardless of bragging or not. I think your second paragraph makes a lot more sense.
  - watwut 10y ago
    1.) Uber was praised as role model and people tried to mimic them. That has impact on behavior or other companies and founders in tech community. Crooks being praised and rewarded means more crooks in the future. People who think this is bad thing, wants (and have absolute right) to put attention on previously praised crooks so that opposite message (it is bad behavior and you might get punished) gets attention too. 2.) If you brag about your success and break-the-rules-strategy, people like you less and get more angry with you. Once you get caught, they get happy, talk about it and wants to see you punished more then as if you did not bragged. That is how humans work.
    - mangodrunk 10y ago
      I agree, that rewarded bad behavior could lead others to follow. But, we have much bigger issues going on, such as the banking industry and all the mess that it has caused all the while getting rewarded for it. Bragging isn't the problem, if what they're doing is illegal, then it should be handled accordingly. They might be thinking that they are thinking out of the box, and you might have to break some laws, but those laws are actually blocking progress. So, not necessarily a bad thing depending on the law being broken.
askvictor 10y ago
I think the difference is that Wells Fargo and it's ilk already have a shit ton of money and will stop at nothing to make more. Startup philosophy generally involves breaking rules somewhere along the way, but it strikes me as so deeply ingrained into Uber's culture as to be an end in itself.
lmm 10y ago
> HSBC got a slap on the wrist for laundering billions in drug money. AIUI there's no evidence that actually happened. It's more like they were marking some transactions as low-risk rather than medium-risk when they should have been following guidelines that allowed the transactions to be considered as low-risk or medium-risk, but under slightly different criteria.

nullnilvoid 10y ago

As much as I want to see an immoral company to crash and burn, the presented evidences so far have been circumstantial. There is a lack of direct evidences that Uber was stealing IP, as opposed to Levandowski.

wavefunction 10y ago
How did the manufacturer of the LIDAR component get the same exact design for Otto that they had built for Waymo? I think it's pretty obvious what happened but there are a lot of folks who want to whistle and look the other way.
- xyzzy_plugh 10y ago
  Have you ever dealt with vendors? They'll happily "help" you design boards using solutions from their other customers. They'll let you run some sample fabs on your competitors equipment. They'll accidentally put your design docs in the same ftp folder as your competitors. There are a lot of ways and they're more obvious than what you imply.
  - bb611 10y ago
    Some will, some won't. Since everyone basically agrees that Levandowski downloaded these files from google, Occam's Razor suggests that the guy who knowingly stole the files provided them along. Doesn't rule out a different sort of malfeasance, but certainly it's worth exploring that avenue to the fullest.
andygates 10y ago
> the presented evidences so far have been circumstantial ...and that's what makes all Uber/Lev's avoidance look as damning as it is. If the stuff they're not saying cleared them, they'd present more of it - enough to make their case.

slackingoff2017 10y ago

Shady stuff happens at a lot of companies, Travis pissed somebody off, probably a VP, and didn't pay them enough to keep quiet. You know those golden parachutes that piss everyone off? They give you those in return for promising not talk about anything shady going on near the top