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There is a major design flaw in democracy. Democracy works on majority votes which is a form of consensus. - If the majority believe that money is important,

by NTDF9 9y ago

There is a major design flaw in democracy. Democracy works on majority votes which is a form of consensus. - If the majority believe that money is important, then they'll vote to reflect that - If the majority believe that God exists and rules on us, then they'll vote to reflect that - If the majority believe that paparazzi are smart, then they'll vote to reflect that - If the majority believe that the leaders have their best interests at heart, then they'll vote to reflect that - If the majority believe that Trump is smarter than Obama, then they'll vote to reflect that - If the majority believe that science and climate change are phony, then they'll vote to reflect that The only and only way to mitigate the effect of this bug is to have a well-educated set of majority voters. Unfortunately, for far too many years, school-districting and "choice" of education to young kids has under-educated the masses...resulting in voters genuinely believing crap to be true. The result is Brexit and Trump. When the critical mass of our populace prefers news from tabloids and facebook and are unable to think for themselves, there's really not much democracy can do.

Safety1stClyde 9y ago
I won't comment on Trump, but repeating the mantra that the Brexit vote was due to stupidity on the part of voters over and over again not only won't make it true, it didn't work to convince the leavers to vote remain. There is a very interesting failure of imagination of the remain campaign in assuming that their best interests were the same as other people's, and denigrating or dismissing other people's concerns as due to stupidity or racism. The Brexit vote result is a comeupance for this self-serving elite.
- NTDF9 9y ago
  >> There is a very interesting failure of imagination of the remain campaign in assuming that their best interests were the same as other people's, and denigrating or dismissing other people's concerns as due to stupidity or racism. The Brexit vote result is a comeupance for this self-serving elite. I'm not saying that they didn't vote with their best interest at heart. But best self-interest with incomplete information can lead to disasters. Let's say brexit causes some other country in EU to become the financial powerhouse of the region, means a lot of jobs get out of the UK, which means more strain on social services and lower value of investments already made by said voters, which means poorer retirement. The above could well be right or wrong. But do you really think the average citizen actually thought about all this? Or did they just charge out because they "felt" left out? Given a choice, most citizens' self interest dictates cheap housing, education and healthcare with lower taxes. Self-interest asks for wealth without working. Just voting it into law without understanding the repercussions is a recipe for disaster.
  - Safety1stClyde 9y ago
    In a democratic system, the tactic of dismissing other people as stupid is not a successful one. I don't want to comment on Trump's campaign, but a similar thing certainly seems to have happened with the climate change debate.
    - NTDF9 9y ago
      You are assuming I'm calling other people stupid. I'm merely claiming that the bigger global powers at play simply don't matter to the average human as much as their immediate circumstances (job, family, income, healthcare)...and that's why they don't vote for external circumstances. All of the above (family, job, income, housing etc) need underlying structures. These underlying structures are complex and intertwined with one another. When the average person comes out and votes, "Why should I pay for other's health problems?"...it sounds fair at a local level. At a societal level, it's a major problem. Most voters are not going to vote at a societal level.
      - Safety1stClyde 9y ago
        > You are assuming I'm calling other people stupid. No, I have no idea about you beyond the comment above, I have not even read your post history or profile. I was expanding on the point I made to include climate change.
      - vixen99 9y ago
        Voters are rather more nuanced than you give them credit for.
hanoz 9y ago
Brexit can hardly be said to be the product of a populace unable to think for themselves when the outcome was in spite of an overwhelming campaign to the contrary by every establishment interest group your can think of; MPs, trade unions, business leaders, academics, foreign presidents, the judiciary, the press, the BBC, bankers, scientists, artists, celebrities... it was absolutely relentless. And a people who if anything are normally too moved by the influence of these groups, suddenly in the face of them all speaking in unison decided that this time they would make their own minds up thank you very much.
candiodari 9y ago
And if the left actually pushes the idea that free trade, global free movement of labor, financialization and asset inflation are good ? Brexit is the first real anti-globalization decision made in decades. You'd think the left would be beside themselves with joy that finally, after all the shouting, demonstrations, activism, ... finally ONE correct decision was made. Finally. If large amounts of the left are convinced this decision is wrong. Does that count as stupid as well ? The result of fake news ? Newsflash: globalization, and the very existence of the EU, works against everyone but capital owners. It works against the working class, it works against the middle class, even against most of the upper class.
- flukus 9y ago
  When did the left become pro-globalization? I didn't realize it happened until brexit/trump, was it a reaction to this or did it happen earlier? All those young people protesting Trump and other similar issues, if they were born 15 years earlier they would have been at the battle of Seattle and Trump would be seen as the messiah.
  - candiodari 9y ago
    At least in Europe, it happened earlier, long before Trump. Right now the left is actually fighting FOR the EU. It's baffling.
  - mercer 9y ago
    I think in part the word 'globalization' has become too vague. As far as I know, but correct me if I'm wrong, the left has always been pro-globalization, just in a different way ('workers of the world, unite!'?). When it comes to the EU, most (reasonable) left-wing people I know are 'pro', but with very mixed feelings. But then I feel that a deeper issue is that the words 'left' and 'right' leave out so much information (these days) that they actively harm productive conversation. At the very least we disentangle the 'social' and 'economic' dimensions. If we'd do that I think at least some of the confusion over the seemingly inconsistent attitudes towards globalization will make more sense.
- NTDF9 9y ago
amriksohata 9y ago
You missed a critical point - the "well educated" leading us into financial crises, expenses scandals, lying to us etc generally means they lose respect.
owebmaster 9y ago
Ok, but Obama and Clinton were also elected by the same majority. And in their terms they did until now a lot of things worse thawhat came from Brexit or Trump election. All modern elections are manipulated. Yes we can?
abandonliberty 9y ago
I'm very sure this was entirely intentional. In a position of power you need to reduce those whose favor you have to buy.

by NTDF9 9y ago

Safety1stClyde 9y ago

I won't comment on Trump, but repeating the mantra that the Brexit vote was due to stupidity on the part of voters over and over again not only won't make it true, it didn't work to convince the leavers to vote remain. There is a very interesting failure of imagination of the remain campaign in assuming that their best interests were the same as other people's, and denigrating or dismissing other people's concerns as due to stupidity or racism. The Brexit vote result is a comeupance for this self-serving elite.

NTDF9 9y ago
>> There is a very interesting failure of imagination of the remain campaign in assuming that their best interests were the same as other people's, and denigrating or dismissing other people's concerns as due to stupidity or racism. The Brexit vote result is a comeupance for this self-serving elite. I'm not saying that they didn't vote with their best interest at heart. But best self-interest with incomplete information can lead to disasters. Let's say brexit causes some other country in EU to become the financial powerhouse of the region, means a lot of jobs get out of the UK, which means more strain on social services and lower value of investments already made by said voters, which means poorer retirement. The above could well be right or wrong. But do you really think the average citizen actually thought about all this? Or did they just charge out because they "felt" left out? Given a choice, most citizens' self interest dictates cheap housing, education and healthcare with lower taxes. Self-interest asks for wealth without working. Just voting it into law without understanding the repercussions is a recipe for disaster.
- Safety1stClyde 9y ago
  In a democratic system, the tactic of dismissing other people as stupid is not a successful one. I don't want to comment on Trump's campaign, but a similar thing certainly seems to have happened with the climate change debate.
  - NTDF9 9y ago
    You are assuming I'm calling other people stupid. I'm merely claiming that the bigger global powers at play simply don't matter to the average human as much as their immediate circumstances (job, family, income, healthcare)...and that's why they don't vote for external circumstances. All of the above (family, job, income, housing etc) need underlying structures. These underlying structures are complex and intertwined with one another. When the average person comes out and votes, "Why should I pay for other's health problems?"...it sounds fair at a local level. At a societal level, it's a major problem. Most voters are not going to vote at a societal level.
    - Safety1stClyde 9y ago
      > You are assuming I'm calling other people stupid. No, I have no idea about you beyond the comment above, I have not even read your post history or profile. I was expanding on the point I made to include climate change.
    - vixen99 9y ago
      Voters are rather more nuanced than you give them credit for.

hanoz 9y ago

Brexit can hardly be said to be the product of a populace unable to think for themselves when the outcome was in spite of an overwhelming campaign to the contrary by every establishment interest group your can think of; MPs, trade unions, business leaders, academics, foreign presidents, the judiciary, the press, the BBC, bankers, scientists, artists, celebrities... it was absolutely relentless. And a people who if anything are normally too moved by the influence of these groups, suddenly in the face of them all speaking in unison decided that this time they would make their own minds up thank you very much.

candiodari 9y ago

And if the left actually pushes the idea that free trade, global free movement of labor, financialization and asset inflation are good ? Brexit is the first real anti-globalization decision made in decades. You'd think the left would be beside themselves with joy that finally, after all the shouting, demonstrations, activism, ... finally ONE correct decision was made. Finally. If large amounts of the left are convinced this decision is wrong. Does that count as stupid as well ? The result of fake news ? Newsflash: globalization, and the very existence of the EU, works against everyone but capital owners. It works against the working class, it works against the middle class, even against most of the upper class.

flukus 9y ago
When did the left become pro-globalization? I didn't realize it happened until brexit/trump, was it a reaction to this or did it happen earlier? All those young people protesting Trump and other similar issues, if they were born 15 years earlier they would have been at the battle of Seattle and Trump would be seen as the messiah.
- candiodari 9y ago
  At least in Europe, it happened earlier, long before Trump. Right now the left is actually fighting FOR the EU. It's baffling.
- mercer 9y ago
  I think in part the word 'globalization' has become too vague. As far as I know, but correct me if I'm wrong, the left has always been pro-globalization, just in a different way ('workers of the world, unite!'?). When it comes to the EU, most (reasonable) left-wing people I know are 'pro', but with very mixed feelings. But then I feel that a deeper issue is that the words 'left' and 'right' leave out so much information (these days) that they actively harm productive conversation. At the very least we disentangle the 'social' and 'economic' dimensions. If we'd do that I think at least some of the confusion over the seemingly inconsistent attitudes towards globalization will make more sense.
NTDF9 9y ago

amriksohata 9y ago

You missed a critical point - the "well educated" leading us into financial crises, expenses scandals, lying to us etc generally means they lose respect.

owebmaster 9y ago

Ok, but Obama and Clinton were also elected by the same majority. And in their terms they did until now a lot of things worse thawhat came from Brexit or Trump election. All modern elections are manipulated. Yes we can?

abandonliberty 9y ago

I'm very sure this was entirely intentional. In a position of power you need to reduce those whose favor you have to buy.