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"ahead of the West" Ahem, ahead of the US, really. Canada and the EU can be cashless already, with chip cards and direct bank withdrawal at the POS a reality f

"ahead of the West" Ahem, ahead of the US, really. Canada and the EU can be cashless already, with chip cards and direct bank withdrawal at the POS a reality for 99.99% of merchants.

EGreg 9y ago
China is cashless. Stores don't accept your cash much. And you have to show a government id to buy anything. And they track you. But it gets worse than that. If the government wants to punish you, they can just cut you off. Can't buy food, can't pay rent. Oh you think your friends can help you? China has that covered too, with its shiny new credit system. Being associated with - let alone helping - people cut off from buying food may result in a drastic lowering of score and ability to do business yourself. On the bright side, used wisely such coersion may he better than outright violence at stopping criminals and terrorists.
- run4yourlives2 9y ago
  Thankfully, there is a good amount of space between money under mattresses and a government controlled economy. Your comment is a giant straw man. Canadian and EU systems are private ones and the government has little or no power to directly intervene, short of law enforcement. The idea that eliminating paper is some sort of boogeyman from Revelations is about as silly as the idea that holding on to your Glock allows you defend your rights against a corrupt government. Neither actually offer any type of protection against these particular issues. Unless you are wandering around with $20K in cash everyday, your bank account is still subject to the very things you seem to be afraid of. The only thing that changes in a mostly cashless society is your access to your bank account. If the government is going to freeze your account, it matters little if you have a chip card or need to go to the teller. Thankfully, we in the west have moved most of the management of this to the private sector, and require things like warrants before any real action is done. That can and is an issue at times, but has little effect on the day to day implementation of one method over another.
  - tomcam 9y ago
    Were there any facts in your answer? Where did the parent mention Revelations?
    - run4yourlives2 9y ago
      I'm not sure what you are looking for. OP linked a cashless society to being the cause of government control. This is false. Government can exert control already in a cash-based society to a sufficient degree. It's more a style of the government in question than the tech used.
      - EGreg 9y ago
        You missed the part where I said a government id is required to make a purchase, so there is a single point of failure aka disconnection. This is not true in the USA or other countries where you can have cards from many different banks so if one blocks you, you pay with another. And cash certainly represents a way of paying with no such restrictions.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Sadly, I think the solution in the US and some parts of the EU is even worse than the chinese one. Try buying Cuban cigars without cash anywhere. Your VISA or MasterCard will mysteriously fail to allow this purchase – because, due to the embargo, these companies just refuse to allow transactions containing the words "cuba", "iran", etc. VISA and MasterCard also have additional rules of their own, and if you have a society that is cashless, they can just cut you off, too. This is giving a for-profit entity (which, by its own nature, does not care about you, just about taking your money) far too much power. Sweden is having that problem: You can’t do anything without a debit card anymore, banks have high fees just to get cash from your account, but the only debit cards you can get are from VISA or MasterCard. This wouldn’t be an issue if there were many competitors, or even local competitors, or if the systems were open.
    - run4yourlives2 9y ago
- chocolatebunny 9y ago
  Wait, is China really cashless now? A coworker of mine was just telling me that he used go with the accountant at his workplace to withdraw millions of dollars in cash from the bank to pay all the employees in cash. He hasn't worked in China for at least over 10 years but I didn't expect a change from million dollar cash transactions being commonplace to cashless in that time.
  - mattchamb 9y ago
    I dont think he knows what he is talking about. I spent 3 weeks in China in February, and used cash for pretty much everything including accommodation. Admittedly, there are lots of options for paying for things with wechat, etc. but it was nowhere near cashless.
- OkGoDoIt 9y ago
  That's not accurate. I was just in Chengdu and Shenzhen last month and paid almost exclusively in cash everywhere I went. In fact for smaller vendors and street food, cash is the only option. Many vendors also accept WeChat payments (which seems to be the most common form of payment, at least for casual to mid-range transactions by people in my peer group), and UnionPay network credit cards are also widely accepted. Western credit/debit cards tend to work only at more upscale/modern/larger vendors. From what I've seen of Chinese commerce in various cities, I would be very very surprised if China went anywhere near cashless anytime soon. Cash seems to be a bigger part of the culture there than in the USA. You do have to show government ID to get a cell phone or purchase long-distance train tickets. Also checking into a higher end hotel. And since using public Wi-Fi requires you to authenticate with your Chinese phone number, that's also effectively linked to your ID. There are many aspects of Chinese society that are easily trackable by the government, but commerce does not seem to be one of them, at least from what I've seen.
  - EGreg 9y ago
    Thanks for the personal experience! So my impression was wrong. I'm happy about that.
- nicostouch 9y ago
  China is nowhere near cashless. Though, they do do a lot of payments by mobile apps like Alipay and WeChat. I was there for 3 months recently and I used Alipay for almost every cos Im from NZ and whilst we have cash here I never use it, every transaction is done via debit card. Was so good when I got Alipay in China cos I hate cash. Still... China definitely isnt cashless.
- silver7017 9y ago
  ok - everything you just said (save the last line) is wrong. I have lived in china (wuhan, specifically) for about 4 years and have been to beijing, shanghai, and a few random smaller towns/cities. while it is possible to use various mobile payment networks almost everywhere, literally everywhere also accepts cash. literally nowhere requires that you show any sort of ID to buy physical goods under any circumstances. buying internet/phone service does require an ID, and thus the govt can fuck with you there if they want, but rent is often done informally so no chance of interference there. the market here is so filled with tiny businesses that even if a person were somehow banned from buying at larger stores (which doesn't happen), they would still be able to get everything from smaller markets at a similar or sometimes lower price. the social credit system you are talking about isn't actually in effect yet. once it is? yeah, it'll be pretty fucked up. I suspect it will get thrown out or heavily modified before then. but again - it will hold no power over people who use cash at small markets. I'm not trying to defend the government here, but please have your facts straight so as to prevent you from spouting nonsense like the post above. criticism is most effective when it is accurate.
sailfast 9y ago
Acknowledge that not using cash places is "advanced" but also want to say that being able to use cash is not necessarily a bad thing. Cash allows for anonymity, allows for the un-banked to conduct their business, and prevents 100% leverage of your transactions data (not to mention transaction fees) by the companies that handle them.
- run4yourlives2 9y ago
  You are correct in all of this, of course, but cash can always be kept for backup even in societies that are mostly cashless. The issue of "un banked" can be distinctly American too, actually. Given the extent of social programs in Can/EU, even the nearly homeless have bank accounts, because government funds are pushed directly into accounts, and it's more secure/timely than receiving a physical cheque. Not having a simply checking account is a very rare thing in Canada.

"ahead of the West" Ahem, ahead of the US, really. Canada and the EU can be cashless already, with chip cards and direct bank withdrawal at the POS a reality for 99.99% of merchants.

EGreg 9y ago

China is cashless. Stores don't accept your cash much. And you have to show a government id to buy anything. And they track you. But it gets worse than that. If the government wants to punish you, they can just cut you off. Can't buy food, can't pay rent. Oh you think your friends can help you? China has that covered too, with its shiny new credit system. Being associated with - let alone helping - people cut off from buying food may result in a drastic lowering of score and ability to do business yourself. On the bright side, used wisely such coersion may he better than outright violence at stopping criminals and terrorists.

run4yourlives2 9y ago
Thankfully, there is a good amount of space between money under mattresses and a government controlled economy. Your comment is a giant straw man. Canadian and EU systems are private ones and the government has little or no power to directly intervene, short of law enforcement. The idea that eliminating paper is some sort of boogeyman from Revelations is about as silly as the idea that holding on to your Glock allows you defend your rights against a corrupt government. Neither actually offer any type of protection against these particular issues. Unless you are wandering around with $20K in cash everyday, your bank account is still subject to the very things you seem to be afraid of. The only thing that changes in a mostly cashless society is your access to your bank account. If the government is going to freeze your account, it matters little if you have a chip card or need to go to the teller. Thankfully, we in the west have moved most of the management of this to the private sector, and require things like warrants before any real action is done. That can and is an issue at times, but has little effect on the day to day implementation of one method over another.
- tomcam 9y ago
  Were there any facts in your answer? Where did the parent mention Revelations?
  - run4yourlives2 9y ago
    I'm not sure what you are looking for. OP linked a cashless society to being the cause of government control. This is false. Government can exert control already in a cash-based society to a sufficient degree. It's more a style of the government in question than the tech used.
    - EGreg 9y ago
      You missed the part where I said a government id is required to make a purchase, so there is a single point of failure aka disconnection. This is not true in the USA or other countries where you can have cards from many different banks so if one blocks you, you pay with another. And cash certainly represents a way of paying with no such restrictions.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Sadly, I think the solution in the US and some parts of the EU is even worse than the chinese one. Try buying Cuban cigars without cash anywhere. Your VISA or MasterCard will mysteriously fail to allow this purchase – because, due to the embargo, these companies just refuse to allow transactions containing the words "cuba", "iran", etc. VISA and MasterCard also have additional rules of their own, and if you have a society that is cashless, they can just cut you off, too. This is giving a for-profit entity (which, by its own nature, does not care about you, just about taking your money) far too much power. Sweden is having that problem: You can’t do anything without a debit card anymore, banks have high fees just to get cash from your account, but the only debit cards you can get are from VISA or MasterCard. This wouldn’t be an issue if there were many competitors, or even local competitors, or if the systems were open.
  - run4yourlives2 9y ago
chocolatebunny 9y ago
Wait, is China really cashless now? A coworker of mine was just telling me that he used go with the accountant at his workplace to withdraw millions of dollars in cash from the bank to pay all the employees in cash. He hasn't worked in China for at least over 10 years but I didn't expect a change from million dollar cash transactions being commonplace to cashless in that time.
- mattchamb 9y ago
  I dont think he knows what he is talking about. I spent 3 weeks in China in February, and used cash for pretty much everything including accommodation. Admittedly, there are lots of options for paying for things with wechat, etc. but it was nowhere near cashless.
OkGoDoIt 9y ago
That's not accurate. I was just in Chengdu and Shenzhen last month and paid almost exclusively in cash everywhere I went. In fact for smaller vendors and street food, cash is the only option. Many vendors also accept WeChat payments (which seems to be the most common form of payment, at least for casual to mid-range transactions by people in my peer group), and UnionPay network credit cards are also widely accepted. Western credit/debit cards tend to work only at more upscale/modern/larger vendors. From what I've seen of Chinese commerce in various cities, I would be very very surprised if China went anywhere near cashless anytime soon. Cash seems to be a bigger part of the culture there than in the USA. You do have to show government ID to get a cell phone or purchase long-distance train tickets. Also checking into a higher end hotel. And since using public Wi-Fi requires you to authenticate with your Chinese phone number, that's also effectively linked to your ID. There are many aspects of Chinese society that are easily trackable by the government, but commerce does not seem to be one of them, at least from what I've seen.
- EGreg 9y ago
  Thanks for the personal experience! So my impression was wrong. I'm happy about that.
nicostouch 9y ago
China is nowhere near cashless. Though, they do do a lot of payments by mobile apps like Alipay and WeChat. I was there for 3 months recently and I used Alipay for almost every cos Im from NZ and whilst we have cash here I never use it, every transaction is done via debit card. Was so good when I got Alipay in China cos I hate cash. Still... China definitely isnt cashless.
silver7017 9y ago
ok - everything you just said (save the last line) is wrong. I have lived in china (wuhan, specifically) for about 4 years and have been to beijing, shanghai, and a few random smaller towns/cities. while it is possible to use various mobile payment networks almost everywhere, literally everywhere also accepts cash. literally nowhere requires that you show any sort of ID to buy physical goods under any circumstances. buying internet/phone service does require an ID, and thus the govt can fuck with you there if they want, but rent is often done informally so no chance of interference there. the market here is so filled with tiny businesses that even if a person were somehow banned from buying at larger stores (which doesn't happen), they would still be able to get everything from smaller markets at a similar or sometimes lower price. the social credit system you are talking about isn't actually in effect yet. once it is? yeah, it'll be pretty fucked up. I suspect it will get thrown out or heavily modified before then. but again - it will hold no power over people who use cash at small markets. I'm not trying to defend the government here, but please have your facts straight so as to prevent you from spouting nonsense like the post above. criticism is most effective when it is accurate.

sailfast 9y ago

Acknowledge that not using cash places is "advanced" but also want to say that being able to use cash is not necessarily a bad thing. Cash allows for anonymity, allows for the un-banked to conduct their business, and prevents 100% leverage of your transactions data (not to mention transaction fees) by the companies that handle them.

run4yourlives2 9y ago
You are correct in all of this, of course, but cash can always be kept for backup even in societies that are mostly cashless. The issue of "un banked" can be distinctly American too, actually. Given the extent of social programs in Can/EU, even the nearly homeless have bank accounts, because government funds are pushed directly into accounts, and it's more secure/timely than receiving a physical cheque. Not having a simply checking account is a very rare thing in Canada.