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I'm not a lawyer, that byline seems to be misleading. Property owners ARE innocent until proven guilty. In civil asset forfeiture the PROPERTY is charged with

by sbov 9y ago

I'm not a lawyer, that byline seems to be misleading. Property owners ARE innocent until proven guilty. In civil asset forfeiture the PROPERTY is charged with a crime, not the owner. Which is the ridiculous part. You shouldn't be able to charge property with a crime if you can locate the owner.

sverige 9y ago
My understanding is that suing in rem began with ships, since they are quite valuable and movable at the same time. Thus, ships can be sued and arrested to prevent the asset from being removed from the jurisdiction. It has been expanded considerably since those simpler times, mostly I think to benefit the coffers of government agencies that could not convince legislators to provide them with bigger budgets.
nommm-nommm 9y ago
Yes, that's called in rem jurisdiction (power over objects) and the resulting cases can sound very comical United States v. Approximately 64,695 Pounds of Shark Fins United States v. Forty Barrels and Twenty Kegs of Coca-Cola United States v. Ninety-Five Barrels, More or Less, Alleged Apple Cider Vinegar One 1958 Plymouth Sedan v. Pennsylvania United States v. 11 1/4 Dozen Packages of Articles Labeled in Part Mrs. Moffat’s Shoo-Fly Powders for Drunkenness Marcus v. Search Warrant of Property at 104 East Tenth Street, Kansas City, Missouri United States v. Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls United States v. One Lucite Ball Containing Lunar Material (One Moon Rock) and One Ten Inch by Fourteen Inch Wooden Plaque
- hirsin 9y ago
  How does a 1958 Plymouth Sedan go about hiring a lawyer for representation? Along with standing, rights, representation....
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  > that's called in rem jurisdiction (power over objects) Where did "power over objects" come from? Going strictly by the Latin, in rem means "into the thing" ("into" here marks that the thing is being attacked). "Thing" and "object" are basically synonymous, sure, but power is not mentioned at all.
  - nommm-nommm 9y ago
    In Rem = against a thing/object - https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/in_rem https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/in_rem Jurisdiction = Power [of a court] - https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/jurisdiction https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/jurisdiction "The term jurisdiction is really synonymous with the word "power"."
phkahler 9y ago
>> I'm not a lawyer, that byline seems to be misleading. Property owners ARE innocent until proven guilty. In civil asset forfeiture the PROPERTY is charged with a crime, not the owner. When the property is seized from the owner and sold at auction I don't think the property has been punished in any way, but the owner has been subject to seizure of property without cause. We agree, it's absurd.

by sbov 9y ago

sverige 9y ago

My understanding is that suing in rem began with ships, since they are quite valuable and movable at the same time. Thus, ships can be sued and arrested to prevent the asset from being removed from the jurisdiction. It has been expanded considerably since those simpler times, mostly I think to benefit the coffers of government agencies that could not convince legislators to provide them with bigger budgets.

nommm-nommm 9y ago

Yes, that's called in rem jurisdiction (power over objects) and the resulting cases can sound very comical United States v. Approximately 64,695 Pounds of Shark Fins United States v. Forty Barrels and Twenty Kegs of Coca-Cola United States v. Ninety-Five Barrels, More or Less, Alleged Apple Cider Vinegar One 1958 Plymouth Sedan v. Pennsylvania United States v. 11 1/4 Dozen Packages of Articles Labeled in Part Mrs. Moffat’s Shoo-Fly Powders for Drunkenness Marcus v. Search Warrant of Property at 104 East Tenth Street, Kansas City, Missouri United States v. Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls United States v. One Lucite Ball Containing Lunar Material (One Moon Rock) and One Ten Inch by Fourteen Inch Wooden Plaque

hirsin 9y ago
How does a 1958 Plymouth Sedan go about hiring a lawyer for representation? Along with standing, rights, representation....
thaumasiotes 9y ago
> that's called in rem jurisdiction (power over objects) Where did "power over objects" come from? Going strictly by the Latin, in rem means "into the thing" ("into" here marks that the thing is being attacked). "Thing" and "object" are basically synonymous, sure, but power is not mentioned at all.
- nommm-nommm 9y ago
  In Rem = against a thing/object - https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/in_rem https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/in_rem Jurisdiction = Power [of a court] - https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/jurisdiction https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/jurisdiction "The term jurisdiction is really synonymous with the word "power"."

phkahler 9y ago

>> I'm not a lawyer, that byline seems to be misleading. Property owners ARE innocent until proven guilty. In civil asset forfeiture the PROPERTY is charged with a crime, not the owner. When the property is seized from the owner and sold at auction I don't think the property has been punished in any way, but the owner has been subject to seizure of property without cause. We agree, it's absurd.