6 ms·

“How do we decide what and how much to eat? Maybe satiety consists of different pathways that control different types of nutrients,” This is a pet theory of mi

by nfc 9y ago

“How do we decide what and how much to eat? Maybe satiety consists of different pathways that control different types of nutrients,” This is a pet theory of mine. That, vastly simplifying, our bodies try to make us eat until we have a sufficient amount of whatever number of elements they need to function. The more varied you eat, the less you need to eat, conversely, the more homogeneous your sources of food (bread, rice...), the more you'll need to eat to try to get what is hardly there. I have no idea whether this idea is mainstream between researchers but it always seemed to me as feasible as a satiety mechanism as just counting calories, and it explained quite well the observations I've made about myself. Anybody here could point to the current state of the art in the field ?

ashark 9y ago
I'd expect multivitamins to have a strong effect on general satiety if that's true. Do they?
- BugsJustFindMe 9y ago
  I think they do for me. But that's 100% anecdotal and not even single-blinded.
- metalliqaz 9y ago
  This is what I was thinking, and the answer for me is no.
- nfc 9y ago
  In the context of this theory, if what your body is lacking is one of the vitamins you are consuming, and this way of consuming it allows for the body to use it as it needs, the answer would be yes.
- sayurichick 9y ago
  the problem with (all?) multi-vitamins is the absorption rates are very inefficient. This gets a bit more nuanced when you consider there are diff types of each vitamin like Magnesium Oxide. ... Magnesium Citrate. ... Magnesium Orotate. ... Magnesium Chloride. ... Magnesium Lactate. ... Magnesium Sulfate. ... Magnesium Carbonate, and you're not likely to get the best version in that multi vitamin.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    There exist good multis, but they're quite a bit more expensive and still probably not as good as the real thing.
- iaw 9y ago
  I'd suspect that there is also caloric and absorption components. If you don't have calories your hunger wont be satiated because of energy needs. Vitamins don't absorb as well as nutrients found in foods (they have a low gut surface area and may not contain the easiest molecules for your body/gut to breakdown into nutrients). In my personal experience a complete protein powder (like PlantFusion products) has a strong effect on general satiety as well as health unlike vitamins.
- sudojudo 9y ago
  There's evidence that multivitamins are useless, and that they actually cause health problems [1]. As for OPs theory, it's strange to think of such a thing happening during an obesity epidemic, but many people do seem to be lacking basic nutrients in their diet. I'm not sure how much we can trust our own guts when it comes to seeking out nutritious foods; the majority of people go for sugar and fats when they're hungry, instead of the fruits and vegetables that contain the nutrients they're lacking. It seems our stomachs are not looking out for our best interests. [1] https://hub.jhu.edu/2013/12/17/vitamins-might-be-harmful/ https://hub.jhu.edu/2013/12/17/vitamins-might-be-harmful/
  - sfeng 9y ago
    > many people do seem to be lacking basic nutrients in their diet What's the evidence of that?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      Chromium, for example, is essential for sugar and fat metabolism[1], and most people ingest less than 60% of the minimum daily requirement (less than 50mcg)[1]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836
    - tomsthumb 9y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22364157/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22364157/ Note that 'required' likely means "less than the RDA" and that RDAs are often set on the basis of "having less than this much will imminently lead to some sort of dysfunction" as opposed to "the amount that actually makes your body happy".
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    What is a multivitamin other than a bunch of single nutrients in one package. We know that B12 needs to be supplemented in people who are deficient, and that medicos sometimes give B12 injections. We know that pregnant women who take folate supplements have babies with fewer neural-tube defects (spina bifid etc). We know that we need to put some B vitamins back in the flower after it's milled otherwise the psychiatric wards fill up. We know that people who ingest less than the recommended daily intake of Chromium (less than 50mcg per day) have more blood sugar disregulation[1]. So why not put these things together in one package, where and when it makes sense to do so. I'll admit that some multivitamins are badly formulated, and I actively discourage people from taking certain forms of nutrients. Eg. why does any manufacturer put iron oxide or magnesium oxide in their supplements? These things are poorly absorbed and have known negative side effects. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836
iaw 9y ago
I'm in the same boat, there's a lot of movement in the field of hunger/digestion recently: * Your stomach contains a functional brain with ~25% of the neurons of the one in your head * Gut microbiomes have widespread impact on physical and mental health We need ~20 amino acids and some micro-nutrients to meet our nutrition needs (to our current knowledge). The microbiome adapts to break down different food sources into these nutrients and the body will adapt if it lacks certain nutrients but functionally wont work as well. The idea that there's a signaling mechanism between all of these systems to encourage the right type of consumption is rationally sound.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  Small nitpick, it's the Enteric Nervous System, and the numbers go something like this: "The enteric nervous system in humans consists of some 500 million neurons[6] (including the various types of Dogiel cells),[1][7] one two-hundredth of the number of neurons in the brain, five times as many as the one hundred million neurons in the human spinal cord,[8] and about 2/3 as many as in the whole nervous system of a cat."[1] I'm on board with this pet theory too. For example, we know that the micronutrient Chromium is required in the range of 50 - 200 micrograms per day, and that it is essential for sugar and fat metabolism and that most people ingest less than 60% of the minimum recommended (less than 50mcg) per day.[2] It makes sense to me that the body would induce hunger in an effort to take in enough food to meet a micronutrient deficiency > that this mechanism is derailed by the SAD (Standard Affluent Diet) > a negative feedback loop is induced. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836
oh_sigh 9y ago
I have the same pet theory. One of the reasons that I make it a habit to pick up strange vegetables in the super market, and try to incorporate them to my dishes. If you only ever eat, say, the same 5 vegetables, you may be missing out on some trace nutrients which your body might really want.
overgard 9y ago
Well its a pretty easy theory to test -- take a vitamin w/ the daily value for all the nutrients you need and see if you feel full, and then eat a bowl of rice and see if you feel full.
- x1798DE 9y ago
  Not entirely sure I'm on board with OP's theory, but I think they were saying that the specific things you're hungry for would be modulated by what nutrients you are missing, not that you wouldn't be hungry if you had all your (non-caloric) nutritional needs met.
e40 9y ago
I might have believed this until a few months ago, when I started doing intermittent fasting, but not anymore. I was completely unprepared for how my body reacted to fasting. I crave less than I did before. Almost immediately, my cravings for sugary things (which has been a lifelong battle for me, even though I'm not overweight), went to zero. The fasting method I'm employing: 3 24-hr fasts a week (from dinner to dinner Sun, Tue and Thu, so I skip breakfast and lunch M/W/F).
- cableshaft 9y ago
  Same with going on a low carb diet. Your cravings for sugary things pretty much goes away entirely. There's something else factoring into those urges.
  - e40 9y ago
    I've done low carb before and never had this happen. It takes about 2 weeks of low carb for me to lose my sugar cravings. This was immediate and unexpected. A few days after the fasting started I just realized I wasn't planning my next sugar intake.
- nfc 9y ago
  That's a very sensible comment, I should have expanded a bit more. I do not think that the mechanism I described is the only one influencing hunger. Another, as you said, is our craving for sugary/fatty/salty things and the means to control this type of hunger are completely different (for example fasting).
strictnein 9y ago
I swear one of the things I learned in a parenting class was that young, young children will, if repeatedly offered a wide variety of food, eat in a way that ends up fulfilling their dietary needs over a span of days.
david-cako 9y ago
I spend a lot of time trying to boil down bodily functions to the evolutionary imperatives behind them. This is a really interesting idea, but I think equally valid is the notion that a hunter gatherer really is only seeking out short term gain. I think people are very drawn towards immediate, stark energy, which is why sugar and simple carbs are such an epidemic. Overeating seems like a byproduct of avoiding scarcity. I definitely believe that people crave certain things given certain nutritional deficiencies, though.

by nfc 9y ago

ashark 9y ago

I'd expect multivitamins to have a strong effect on general satiety if that's true. Do they?

BugsJustFindMe 9y ago
I think they do for me. But that's 100% anecdotal and not even single-blinded.
metalliqaz 9y ago
This is what I was thinking, and the answer for me is no.
nfc 9y ago
In the context of this theory, if what your body is lacking is one of the vitamins you are consuming, and this way of consuming it allows for the body to use it as it needs, the answer would be yes.
sayurichick 9y ago
the problem with (all?) multi-vitamins is the absorption rates are very inefficient. This gets a bit more nuanced when you consider there are diff types of each vitamin like Magnesium Oxide. ... Magnesium Citrate. ... Magnesium Orotate. ... Magnesium Chloride. ... Magnesium Lactate. ... Magnesium Sulfate. ... Magnesium Carbonate, and you're not likely to get the best version in that multi vitamin.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  There exist good multis, but they're quite a bit more expensive and still probably not as good as the real thing.
iaw 9y ago
I'd suspect that there is also caloric and absorption components. If you don't have calories your hunger wont be satiated because of energy needs. Vitamins don't absorb as well as nutrients found in foods (they have a low gut surface area and may not contain the easiest molecules for your body/gut to breakdown into nutrients). In my personal experience a complete protein powder (like PlantFusion products) has a strong effect on general satiety as well as health unlike vitamins.
sudojudo 9y ago
There's evidence that multivitamins are useless, and that they actually cause health problems [1]. As for OPs theory, it's strange to think of such a thing happening during an obesity epidemic, but many people do seem to be lacking basic nutrients in their diet. I'm not sure how much we can trust our own guts when it comes to seeking out nutritious foods; the majority of people go for sugar and fats when they're hungry, instead of the fruits and vegetables that contain the nutrients they're lacking. It seems our stomachs are not looking out for our best interests. [1] https://hub.jhu.edu/2013/12/17/vitamins-might-be-harmful/ https://hub.jhu.edu/2013/12/17/vitamins-might-be-harmful/
- sfeng 9y ago
  > many people do seem to be lacking basic nutrients in their diet What's the evidence of that?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    Chromium, for example, is essential for sugar and fat metabolism[1], and most people ingest less than 60% of the minimum daily requirement (less than 50mcg)[1]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836
  - tomsthumb 9y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22364157/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22364157/ Note that 'required' likely means "less than the RDA" and that RDAs are often set on the basis of "having less than this much will imminently lead to some sort of dysfunction" as opposed to "the amount that actually makes your body happy".
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  What is a multivitamin other than a bunch of single nutrients in one package. We know that B12 needs to be supplemented in people who are deficient, and that medicos sometimes give B12 injections. We know that pregnant women who take folate supplements have babies with fewer neural-tube defects (spina bifid etc). We know that we need to put some B vitamins back in the flower after it's milled otherwise the psychiatric wards fill up. We know that people who ingest less than the recommended daily intake of Chromium (less than 50mcg per day) have more blood sugar disregulation[1]. So why not put these things together in one package, where and when it makes sense to do so. I'll admit that some multivitamins are badly formulated, and I actively discourage people from taking certain forms of nutrients. Eg. why does any manufacturer put iron oxide or magnesium oxide in their supplements? These things are poorly absorbed and have known negative side effects. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836

iaw 9y ago

I'm in the same boat, there's a lot of movement in the field of hunger/digestion recently: * Your stomach contains a functional brain with ~25% of the neurons of the one in your head * Gut microbiomes have widespread impact on physical and mental health We need ~20 amino acids and some micro-nutrients to meet our nutrition needs (to our current knowledge). The microbiome adapts to break down different food sources into these nutrients and the body will adapt if it lacks certain nutrients but functionally wont work as well. The idea that there's a signaling mechanism between all of these systems to encourage the right type of consumption is rationally sound.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
Small nitpick, it's the Enteric Nervous System, and the numbers go something like this: "The enteric nervous system in humans consists of some 500 million neurons[6] (including the various types of Dogiel cells),[1][7] one two-hundredth of the number of neurons in the brain, five times as many as the one hundred million neurons in the human spinal cord,[8] and about 2/3 as many as in the whole nervous system of a cat."[1] I'm on board with this pet theory too. For example, we know that the micronutrient Chromium is required in the range of 50 - 200 micrograms per day, and that it is essential for sugar and fat metabolism and that most people ingest less than 60% of the minimum recommended (less than 50mcg) per day.[2] It makes sense to me that the body would induce hunger in an effort to take in enough food to meet a micronutrient deficiency > that this mechanism is derailed by the SAD (Standard Affluent Diet) > a negative feedback loop is induced. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9380836

oh_sigh 9y ago

I have the same pet theory. One of the reasons that I make it a habit to pick up strange vegetables in the super market, and try to incorporate them to my dishes. If you only ever eat, say, the same 5 vegetables, you may be missing out on some trace nutrients which your body might really want.

overgard 9y ago

Well its a pretty easy theory to test -- take a vitamin w/ the daily value for all the nutrients you need and see if you feel full, and then eat a bowl of rice and see if you feel full.

x1798DE 9y ago
Not entirely sure I'm on board with OP's theory, but I think they were saying that the specific things you're hungry for would be modulated by what nutrients you are missing, not that you wouldn't be hungry if you had all your (non-caloric) nutritional needs met.

e40 9y ago

I might have believed this until a few months ago, when I started doing intermittent fasting, but not anymore. I was completely unprepared for how my body reacted to fasting. I crave less than I did before. Almost immediately, my cravings for sugary things (which has been a lifelong battle for me, even though I'm not overweight), went to zero. The fasting method I'm employing: 3 24-hr fasts a week (from dinner to dinner Sun, Tue and Thu, so I skip breakfast and lunch M/W/F).

cableshaft 9y ago
Same with going on a low carb diet. Your cravings for sugary things pretty much goes away entirely. There's something else factoring into those urges.
- e40 9y ago
  I've done low carb before and never had this happen. It takes about 2 weeks of low carb for me to lose my sugar cravings. This was immediate and unexpected. A few days after the fasting started I just realized I wasn't planning my next sugar intake.
nfc 9y ago
That's a very sensible comment, I should have expanded a bit more. I do not think that the mechanism I described is the only one influencing hunger. Another, as you said, is our craving for sugary/fatty/salty things and the means to control this type of hunger are completely different (for example fasting).

strictnein 9y ago

I swear one of the things I learned in a parenting class was that young, young children will, if repeatedly offered a wide variety of food, eat in a way that ends up fulfilling their dietary needs over a span of days.

david-cako 9y ago

I spend a lot of time trying to boil down bodily functions to the evolutionary imperatives behind them. This is a really interesting idea, but I think equally valid is the notion that a hunter gatherer really is only seeking out short term gain. I think people are very drawn towards immediate, stark energy, which is why sugar and simple carbs are such an epidemic. Overeating seems like a byproduct of avoiding scarcity. I definitely believe that people crave certain things given certain nutritional deficiencies, though.