5 ms·

I hope this observation doesn't come across as bigoted or insensitive in any way, but I find it interesting how common transgender people (like the star of this

I hope this observation doesn't come across as bigoted or insensitive in any way, but I find it interesting how common transgender people (like the star of this article) are in the emulator/rom dev community. I can think of four or five other very prominent examples just off the top of my head – and it's not a very large community. It's certainly a greater proportion than the general population. Honestly I can think of more trans-women coding emulators than biologically-born women. I just wonder why such an unrelated-seeming correlation occurs.

ska 10y ago
Many online communities historically have been bigoted and misogynist. If the effect you observe is real, perhaps it's just the reflection of a community that attracted and kept more people over the years because it wasn't (as much) like that?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- projektir 10y ago
  Why are there so few biologically born women in those same communities, then?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- apetresc 10y ago
  I have no direct experience, but I would be surprised if that were true. Emulator development is the perfect intersection of, like, three different communities (low-level tech, video games, and open source) that are (at least on HN) perceived as extra-unwelcoming to women. I don't see why combining all three would cancel that out. I would also note that writing an emulator is not something you just stumble into because the people are friendly or whatever. It requires an extremely honed set of quite niche skills. I think it takes something more to become successful at it than just "I guess I'll stick around because everywhere else is even meaner."
  - zorked 10y ago
    Is that really the case? I think Silicon Valley is perceived as _specially_ unwelcoming to women, not necessarily every computer subculture out there. My personal guess is that as a traditionally underground community the ROM/emulator scene was more welcoming to certain groups due to the use of pseudonyms. It's easier to not draw attraction when you don't walk into an office every day and meet people face to face.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      At this point i find it hard to separate honest problems from SJW shit storms over bike sheds. That said, the valley's VC fueled death marches, and the resulting bravado and "machismo" probably do not help.
- DSMan195276 10y ago
  I would also add that with the number of online communities there are, you could almost 'expect' to see at least one community that's largely made of transgender people even when it doesn't really have anything to do with stuff related to being transgender. Emulators probably aren't the only scene like this. That said, it's not like there can't be other factors as well.
- ptv 10y ago
  I found the opposite was true - People in gaming communities and on anonymous message boards (such as 4chan) are usually very egalitarian. Most conversations do not require any information about a person's identity, so every idea stands on it's own merit. The perceived hostility emerges when a person tries to support their viewpoint by irrelevant factors (gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.).
  - Gracana 10y ago
    This works fine if you're willing to let everyone believe you are who they assume you are. If you correct someone, you're likely to "perceive hostility."
    - Pyrhos 10y ago
      By correcting someone, you are breaking the unspoken rule of anonymous communities - ideas standing on their own merit, regardless of who you are. It's the equivalent of walking into an anonymous alcoholics meeting with booze, telling everyone how great it is to drink. There is no reason for them to cater to you, therefore they want to get rid of you in a fast or fun way. Hostility can be both funny and gets rid of people who do not fit in.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - zyx321 9y ago
      In the words of the /b/east itself: (Warning: VERY harsh language) >If I can pontificate a bit for your edification, one of the rules of the internet is "There are no girls on the internet". This rule does not mean what you think it means. >In real life, people like you for being a girl. They want to fuck you, so they pay attention to you and pretend what you have to say is interesting, or that you are smart and clever. On the internet, we don't get a chance to fuck you. This means the advantage of being a "girl" does not exist. You don't get a bonus in a conversation just because I'd like to put my cock in you. >When you make a stupid post like "hurr durr i'm a gurl" you are begging for attention. The only reason to post it is because you want your girl advantage back, because you are too vapid and stupid to do or say anything interesting without it. You are forgetting the rules, there are no girls on the internet.
yannyu 10y ago
Anecdotally, I was also a member of a small, online, gaming focused community for a long time. It wasn't as directly tied to emulator/roms, but there was definitely a focus on Japanese console games. Over the years, a number of those members have come out as transgender, which has similarly made me wonder what it was about that community that attracted so many people that probably felt ostracized in real life.
umbrai_nation 10y ago
I was an awkward kid with few friends, and turned to computers because they were fascinating and more fun than interacting with people. Could be that people with [insert unusual trait here] are naturally drawn to computers for similar reasons, be they autistic, transgendered, disabled, or just plain weird.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Spending the afternoons with a computer also allows one to avoid more physical activities where one may not perform as well as ones peers.
  - oxide 10y ago
    seriously, my scrawny ass was never good at sports, I had one or two friends growing up at any given time until I was in highschool and starting smoking, which apparently made me cool enough to get to know. before that, school was misery. I spent many teenage hours in front of my computer, making friends, some 15 or so years long friendships were born during that time, people I still regularly talk to and spend time playing games with. I discovered that I did have a skill, when I thought myself directionless and skill-free: I knew how to fix a computer, because I spent so much time troubleshooting my own issues. Not only that, but when I moved to competitive gaming on my computer, I suddenly realized I was good at competition in some field. Sure, it wasn't your traditional competitive outlet, but it was one I wasn't picked last in. Games like Counter-Strike I could come out on top in and feel as if I just won the regional championships, the feeling the kids who were good at physical sports must have felt regularly. I saw the appeal of regular sports, suddenly. The value of competition and watching someone so much more skilled than you could ever be play a sport at the absolute top-level. I'm not disabled, transgendered, or anything else. Just a socially awkward red-head who spent most of my elementary and middle school years either embarrassing myself or wishing I wasn't so goddamned awkward. In and after high-school, that all changed. I had a circle of friends during this time, something I had never had before. Something I still cherish.
- projektir 10y ago
  > Could be that people with [insert unusual trait here] are naturally drawn to computers for similar reasons, be they autistic, transgendered, disabled, or just plain weird. This seems reasonable. But why the lack of biologically-born women? Surely they can be weird, too.
okdana 10y ago
Intuitively i'd guess it's something to do with the way children are 'socialised'. It seems very common for children living as boys to immerse themselves in video games and computers if they're dealing with social isolation or anxiety/depression. It's almost actively encouraged for them to do so — their parents and teachers treat it as normal, most of their male class mates dabble in it, and when i was growing up in the '90s at least video games and computers were depicted almost exclusively as the realm of boys. For trans people in particular i imagine the (semi-)anonymous community aspect also offers some degree of freedom of expression/identity that they often don't have in real life. Children living as girls are not encouraged to get into games and computers to anywhere near the same degree, and for historical reasons they don't really have anyone to look to as an example or role model in that space. I've noticed that all of the trans women i've heard of who had supportive parents and were able to start living as girls early on aren't really interested in games or computers. Admittedly, it's a very very small sample size filtered through the lens of what the mass media consider interesting — Jazz Jennings, that girl from Germany, and a few others — but it's a pattern i've seen anyway.
luckyt 10y ago
I didn't notice that the subject was trans-gender until I read your comment. It's good that the article doesn't highlight the fact: as soon as someone is presented as transgender, this trait becomes their principal trait, even if they have other interesting accomplishments.
- projektir 10y ago
  > as soon as someone is presented as transgender, this trait becomes their principal trait I don't feel this way at all.
  - luckyt 10y ago
    Okay, I don't feel this way either. Unfortunately, most of the world is not as liberal as the community on hacker news, and as soon as you mention 'gay' or 'transgender', the discussion turns to gender / sexual orientation rather than the original topic at hand. The article sidesteps this issue by not mentioning it until much later, that is all.
  - notamy 10y ago
    I don't think that's true of all trans people, but - anecdotally, as with many comments I make on here - several trans people I've met have been the type where being trans is their entire identity, as in it's the only real defining characteristic about them that they show. Obviously the majority are likely not like this, but those few who are seem to be the vocal ones as well.
ben_jones 10y ago
I would guess that communities of introverts are more likely to commit acts that are deemed socially unacceptable, or at least socially disparaging. Could it just be easier to express yourself in such a community?
digi_owl 10y ago
If you check the Filfre.net series of articles, you will find that a number of people involved in early game development would change gender later in life. On a different note, manga and anime seems to more often have protagonists of diffuse gender by western norms.
jordigh 10y ago
In tech in general. The thing that seems most particular about games is the preference for pseudonyms, usually picked from game lore. There was an interesting talk during Pycon 2014 about being transgender in tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R6FXtZl154 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R6FXtZl154
rkapsoro 10y ago
A similar observation on my part that corroborates this: as I started reading the piece, saw that the hacker being interviewed (Myria) was described as female, my immediate intuition (while knowing no other details about the person) was that she was rather more likely to be transgender than biologically-born female. Similar to you, I have little provable intuition as to why this correlation apparently exists, though.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

ska 10y ago

Many online communities historically have been bigoted and misogynist. If the effect you observe is real, perhaps it's just the reflection of a community that attracted and kept more people over the years because it wasn't (as much) like that?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
projektir 10y ago
Why are there so few biologically born women in those same communities, then?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
apetresc 10y ago
I have no direct experience, but I would be surprised if that were true. Emulator development is the perfect intersection of, like, three different communities (low-level tech, video games, and open source) that are (at least on HN) perceived as extra-unwelcoming to women. I don't see why combining all three would cancel that out. I would also note that writing an emulator is not something you just stumble into because the people are friendly or whatever. It requires an extremely honed set of quite niche skills. I think it takes something more to become successful at it than just "I guess I'll stick around because everywhere else is even meaner."
- zorked 10y ago
  Is that really the case? I think Silicon Valley is perceived as _specially_ unwelcoming to women, not necessarily every computer subculture out there. My personal guess is that as a traditionally underground community the ROM/emulator scene was more welcoming to certain groups due to the use of pseudonyms. It's easier to not draw attraction when you don't walk into an office every day and meet people face to face.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    At this point i find it hard to separate honest problems from SJW shit storms over bike sheds. That said, the valley's VC fueled death marches, and the resulting bravado and "machismo" probably do not help.
DSMan195276 10y ago
I would also add that with the number of online communities there are, you could almost 'expect' to see at least one community that's largely made of transgender people even when it doesn't really have anything to do with stuff related to being transgender. Emulators probably aren't the only scene like this. That said, it's not like there can't be other factors as well.
ptv 10y ago
I found the opposite was true - People in gaming communities and on anonymous message boards (such as 4chan) are usually very egalitarian. Most conversations do not require any information about a person's identity, so every idea stands on it's own merit. The perceived hostility emerges when a person tries to support their viewpoint by irrelevant factors (gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.).
- Gracana 10y ago
  This works fine if you're willing to let everyone believe you are who they assume you are. If you correct someone, you're likely to "perceive hostility."
  - Pyrhos 10y ago
    By correcting someone, you are breaking the unspoken rule of anonymous communities - ideas standing on their own merit, regardless of who you are. It's the equivalent of walking into an anonymous alcoholics meeting with booze, telling everyone how great it is to drink. There is no reason for them to cater to you, therefore they want to get rid of you in a fast or fun way. Hostility can be both funny and gets rid of people who do not fit in.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - zyx321 9y ago
    In the words of the /b/east itself: (Warning: VERY harsh language) >If I can pontificate a bit for your edification, one of the rules of the internet is "There are no girls on the internet". This rule does not mean what you think it means. >In real life, people like you for being a girl. They want to fuck you, so they pay attention to you and pretend what you have to say is interesting, or that you are smart and clever. On the internet, we don't get a chance to fuck you. This means the advantage of being a "girl" does not exist. You don't get a bonus in a conversation just because I'd like to put my cock in you. >When you make a stupid post like "hurr durr i'm a gurl" you are begging for attention. The only reason to post it is because you want your girl advantage back, because you are too vapid and stupid to do or say anything interesting without it. You are forgetting the rules, there are no girls on the internet.

yannyu 10y ago

Anecdotally, I was also a member of a small, online, gaming focused community for a long time. It wasn't as directly tied to emulator/roms, but there was definitely a focus on Japanese console games. Over the years, a number of those members have come out as transgender, which has similarly made me wonder what it was about that community that attracted so many people that probably felt ostracized in real life.

umbrai_nation 10y ago

I was an awkward kid with few friends, and turned to computers because they were fascinating and more fun than interacting with people. Could be that people with [insert unusual trait here] are naturally drawn to computers for similar reasons, be they autistic, transgendered, disabled, or just plain weird.

digi_owl 10y ago
Spending the afternoons with a computer also allows one to avoid more physical activities where one may not perform as well as ones peers.
- oxide 10y ago
  seriously, my scrawny ass was never good at sports, I had one or two friends growing up at any given time until I was in highschool and starting smoking, which apparently made me cool enough to get to know. before that, school was misery. I spent many teenage hours in front of my computer, making friends, some 15 or so years long friendships were born during that time, people I still regularly talk to and spend time playing games with. I discovered that I did have a skill, when I thought myself directionless and skill-free: I knew how to fix a computer, because I spent so much time troubleshooting my own issues. Not only that, but when I moved to competitive gaming on my computer, I suddenly realized I was good at competition in some field. Sure, it wasn't your traditional competitive outlet, but it was one I wasn't picked last in. Games like Counter-Strike I could come out on top in and feel as if I just won the regional championships, the feeling the kids who were good at physical sports must have felt regularly. I saw the appeal of regular sports, suddenly. The value of competition and watching someone so much more skilled than you could ever be play a sport at the absolute top-level. I'm not disabled, transgendered, or anything else. Just a socially awkward red-head who spent most of my elementary and middle school years either embarrassing myself or wishing I wasn't so goddamned awkward. In and after high-school, that all changed. I had a circle of friends during this time, something I had never had before. Something I still cherish.
projektir 10y ago
> Could be that people with [insert unusual trait here] are naturally drawn to computers for similar reasons, be they autistic, transgendered, disabled, or just plain weird. This seems reasonable. But why the lack of biologically-born women? Surely they can be weird, too.

okdana 10y ago

Intuitively i'd guess it's something to do with the way children are 'socialised'. It seems very common for children living as boys to immerse themselves in video games and computers if they're dealing with social isolation or anxiety/depression. It's almost actively encouraged for them to do so — their parents and teachers treat it as normal, most of their male class mates dabble in it, and when i was growing up in the '90s at least video games and computers were depicted almost exclusively as the realm of boys. For trans people in particular i imagine the (semi-)anonymous community aspect also offers some degree of freedom of expression/identity that they often don't have in real life. Children living as girls are not encouraged to get into games and computers to anywhere near the same degree, and for historical reasons they don't really have anyone to look to as an example or role model in that space. I've noticed that all of the trans women i've heard of who had supportive parents and were able to start living as girls early on aren't really interested in games or computers. Admittedly, it's a very very small sample size filtered through the lens of what the mass media consider interesting — Jazz Jennings, that girl from Germany, and a few others — but it's a pattern i've seen anyway.

luckyt 10y ago

I didn't notice that the subject was trans-gender until I read your comment. It's good that the article doesn't highlight the fact: as soon as someone is presented as transgender, this trait becomes their principal trait, even if they have other interesting accomplishments.

projektir 10y ago
> as soon as someone is presented as transgender, this trait becomes their principal trait I don't feel this way at all.
- luckyt 10y ago
  Okay, I don't feel this way either. Unfortunately, most of the world is not as liberal as the community on hacker news, and as soon as you mention 'gay' or 'transgender', the discussion turns to gender / sexual orientation rather than the original topic at hand. The article sidesteps this issue by not mentioning it until much later, that is all.
- notamy 10y ago
  I don't think that's true of all trans people, but - anecdotally, as with many comments I make on here - several trans people I've met have been the type where being trans is their entire identity, as in it's the only real defining characteristic about them that they show. Obviously the majority are likely not like this, but those few who are seem to be the vocal ones as well.

ben_jones 10y ago

I would guess that communities of introverts are more likely to commit acts that are deemed socially unacceptable, or at least socially disparaging. Could it just be easier to express yourself in such a community?

digi_owl 10y ago

If you check the Filfre.net series of articles, you will find that a number of people involved in early game development would change gender later in life. On a different note, manga and anime seems to more often have protagonists of diffuse gender by western norms.

jordigh 10y ago

In tech in general. The thing that seems most particular about games is the preference for pseudonyms, usually picked from game lore. There was an interesting talk during Pycon 2014 about being transgender in tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R6FXtZl154 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R6FXtZl154

rkapsoro 10y ago

A similar observation on my part that corroborates this: as I started reading the piece, saw that the hacker being interviewed (Myria) was described as female, my immediate intuition (while knowing no other details about the person) was that she was rather more likely to be transgender than biologically-born female. Similar to you, I have little provable intuition as to why this correlation apparently exists, though.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]