4 ms·

This was the most striking part to me: "According to The Seattle Times, the starting rate at the Airbus plant, about $16.50 per hour, is comparable to the start

by erentz 10y ago

This was the most striking part to me: "According to The Seattle Times, the starting rate at the Airbus plant, about $16.50 per hour, is comparable to the starting wages at Boeing’s passenger-plane plant in Renton, Wash. But the Airbus pay scale tops out at $23 an hour, while experienced Boeing workers can earn $45." We now have so much surplus labor that even this relatively skilled job only pays $16.50 an hour.

JBReefer 10y ago
You're overestimating both the level of skill required to start and the cost of living in Alabama. Alabama is CHEAP, and taxes are very low.
- needz 10y ago
  8th lowest CoL in the USA and a pretty great place to live. Glad to call Birmingham my home.
  - jlappi 10y ago
    Jasper here, even cheaper. A neat little town not too far from the Ham.
    - needz 10y ago
      Currently two miles from work with dirt-cheap rent while I build up my nest egg. Late twenties, single and enjoying the convenient nightlife. I'll gladly move when it's time to though (better school systems and all those family-life-community benefits).
Jtsummers 10y ago
Unions. Alabama doesn't have effective unions. You'll see similar differences in top-end pay in other Right to Work states compared to states like Washington with more effective unions and greater ability of employees to participate in collective bargaining.
- thoraway25455 10y ago
  > Right to Work How and why do Americans tolerate this sort of newspeak? Are you brainwashed to accept it from birth?
ajmurmann 10y ago
And we are all talking about globalization being the culprit which to me is a huge distraction from the actual problem: automation. I wonder if it's not a bigger part of the national debate because it would require politics to say that currently unemployed likely will remain not needed and call for something like basic income guarantee which is in essence a gateway to something very similar to communism.
- 7952 10y ago
  > a gateway to something very similar to communism. At least it would be explicit. Western economies tend to have income redistribution in various forms anyway. It just gets mixed up in tax rates, tax credits, service subsidies and entitlements. People have little idea what the flows of money really look like.
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    If you haven't done so already, I think you'd very much enjoy the Econtalk episode with John Cochrane: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/09/john_cochrane_o.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/09/john_cochrane_o.htm... He argues in favor of decluttering the policy tools you listed. Sounds excellent to me.
reacweb 10y ago
They are hiring unskilled people who are paid during their training.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
iamthepieman 10y ago
The cost of living matters just as much as your wage in quality of life. Here's[0] a 3 bedroom, 2 bath home for 170k within 4 miles of the plant and here's[1] an even less expensive one under 5 miles from the plant If you look at the rental market, you can get apartments and small single family homes from around $300 per bedroom [0]https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/307-Michigan-Ave-Mobile-AL-36604/51022837_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/307-Michigan-Ave-Mobile-A... [1]https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/210-Mohawk-St-Mobile-AL-36606/51013829_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/210-Mohawk-St-Mobile-AL-3...
valuearb 10y ago
The person who makes $16.50 an hour probably costs near $25 an hour. Cash payroll doesn't include employee benefits, including medical, dental, other insurance, paid time off, bonuses, and company share of payroll taxes. It's not unreasonable to estimate the entry level jobs pay about $26,000 a year in cash, and another $10,000 a year in benefits, for a total of around $36,000 a year. In Alabama. You can't have a discussion about pay levels without accounting for total compensation. These are good jobs that pay well given it's an employer trained position that unskilled laborers could get.
- kesselvon 10y ago
  The COL and tax difference isn't 2x. Alabama doesn't have unions, so they can't bargain collectively. That's the whole reason manufacturing has been moving south
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Alabama doesn't have unions Alabama disagrees: https://labor.alabama.gov/inspections/unions.aspx https://labor.alabama.gov/inspections/unions.aspx
    - kesselvon 10y ago
      Alabama is a right-to-work state, unions aren't as effective and there's significant action by local politics to suppress labor activism and organization
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        That's true and important, but it's very different than "Alabama doesn't have unions", is all I'm saying. (It's kind of like saying "C doesn't have static types" just because it's type system is far less powerful than, say, Haskell's.)
neepster 10y ago
You get what you pay for to some extent too... as Mercedes found out, German Engineering is no match for Alabama manufacturing....
- kogus 10y ago
  Mercedes reliability has always been a joke, as any consumer reports study will tell you. They are more a tribute to German marketing than engineering. In any case, there are plenty of high end manufacturers in the american south. BMW and Boeing in SC, just off the top of my head, for example. Stereotypes are wrong, sometimes.

by erentz 10y ago

JBReefer 10y ago

You're overestimating both the level of skill required to start and the cost of living in Alabama. Alabama is CHEAP, and taxes are very low.

needz 10y ago
8th lowest CoL in the USA and a pretty great place to live. Glad to call Birmingham my home.
- jlappi 10y ago
  Jasper here, even cheaper. A neat little town not too far from the Ham.
  - needz 10y ago
    Currently two miles from work with dirt-cheap rent while I build up my nest egg. Late twenties, single and enjoying the convenient nightlife. I'll gladly move when it's time to though (better school systems and all those family-life-community benefits).

Jtsummers 10y ago

Unions. Alabama doesn't have effective unions. You'll see similar differences in top-end pay in other Right to Work states compared to states like Washington with more effective unions and greater ability of employees to participate in collective bargaining.

thoraway25455 10y ago
> Right to Work How and why do Americans tolerate this sort of newspeak? Are you brainwashed to accept it from birth?

ajmurmann 10y ago

And we are all talking about globalization being the culprit which to me is a huge distraction from the actual problem: automation. I wonder if it's not a bigger part of the national debate because it would require politics to say that currently unemployed likely will remain not needed and call for something like basic income guarantee which is in essence a gateway to something very similar to communism.

7952 10y ago
> a gateway to something very similar to communism. At least it would be explicit. Western economies tend to have income redistribution in various forms anyway. It just gets mixed up in tax rates, tax credits, service subsidies and entitlements. People have little idea what the flows of money really look like.
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  If you haven't done so already, I think you'd very much enjoy the Econtalk episode with John Cochrane: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/09/john_cochrane_o.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/09/john_cochrane_o.htm... He argues in favor of decluttering the policy tools you listed. Sounds excellent to me.

reacweb 10y ago

They are hiring unskilled people who are paid during their training.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

iamthepieman 10y ago

The cost of living matters just as much as your wage in quality of life. Here's[0] a 3 bedroom, 2 bath home for 170k within 4 miles of the plant and here's[1] an even less expensive one under 5 miles from the plant If you look at the rental market, you can get apartments and small single family homes from around $300 per bedroom [0]https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/307-Michigan-Ave-Mobile-AL-36604/51022837_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/307-Michigan-Ave-Mobile-A... [1]https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/210-Mohawk-St-Mobile-AL-36606/51013829_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/210-Mohawk-St-Mobile-AL-3...

valuearb 10y ago

The person who makes $16.50 an hour probably costs near $25 an hour. Cash payroll doesn't include employee benefits, including medical, dental, other insurance, paid time off, bonuses, and company share of payroll taxes. It's not unreasonable to estimate the entry level jobs pay about $26,000 a year in cash, and another $10,000 a year in benefits, for a total of around $36,000 a year. In Alabama. You can't have a discussion about pay levels without accounting for total compensation. These are good jobs that pay well given it's an employer trained position that unskilled laborers could get.

kesselvon 10y ago
The COL and tax difference isn't 2x. Alabama doesn't have unions, so they can't bargain collectively. That's the whole reason manufacturing has been moving south
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Alabama doesn't have unions Alabama disagrees: https://labor.alabama.gov/inspections/unions.aspx https://labor.alabama.gov/inspections/unions.aspx
  - kesselvon 10y ago
    Alabama is a right-to-work state, unions aren't as effective and there's significant action by local politics to suppress labor activism and organization
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      That's true and important, but it's very different than "Alabama doesn't have unions", is all I'm saying. (It's kind of like saying "C doesn't have static types" just because it's type system is far less powerful than, say, Haskell's.)

neepster 10y ago

You get what you pay for to some extent too... as Mercedes found out, German Engineering is no match for Alabama manufacturing....

kogus 10y ago
Mercedes reliability has always been a joke, as any consumer reports study will tell you. They are more a tribute to German marketing than engineering. In any case, there are plenty of high end manufacturers in the american south. BMW and Boeing in SC, just off the top of my head, for example. Stereotypes are wrong, sometimes.