4 ms·

> Semi-related: we were in the market for a new car. One of the factors we decided to go for a European car this time (we had a Ford Focus before) is that we'd

> Semi-related: we were in the market for a new car. One of the factors we decided to go for a European car this time (we had a Ford Focus before) is that we'd like to support Trump America as little as possible. What an exciting new world we live in, in which, before we do any kind of business or trade with a company which has a presence in a foreign country, we must consider all of the policies of that country's current, democratically elected leader--and if we don't agree with them, we refuse to do any business with that company, thereby attempting to punish the citizens of that country for exercising their right to democratic self-rule. How dare they have a different opinion. We'll buy local instead. That'll teach 'em to disagree with us. What a sad state of affairs our world will be in if we all stop doing business with those who don't agree with us on everything. We might as well organize ourselves into separate entities and only do business within them. That would be...something like nations, without trade, no? But then here we are trying to force these other nations to do what we want, thereby erasing the distinctions between them. And that's the real goal here, isn't it? The world becomes smaller every day.

rapind 9y ago
Sounds to me like voting with your pocket book. How is this a bad thing? Would you also object if I didn't want to purchase clothes that are manufactured in a way I find morally deplorable? Hey it's not the workers fault right?
- alphapapa 9y ago
  > Sounds to me like voting with your pocket book. It's very interesting that you would compare it to voting, because that means we're talking about citizens of one country "voting" for the leader of another country--which would mean interfering with another country's elections. Are you sure you want to stick with that analogy? :) This is in contrast with the traditional definition of "voting with your wallet," which refers to refusing to do business with companies you don't like. > How is this a bad thing? In a nutshell, it's bad because it further contributes to polarization and division. This becomes a self-reinforcing cycle, leading to ever more "us vs. them" thinking. Eventually it's what leads to wars. Isn't it fairly basic political theory that nations which are economically interdependent are less likely to go to war with each other? If we can't do business with anyone who has different political opinions than we do, that's a recipe for...well, war. > Would you also object if I didn't want to purchase clothes that are manufactured in a way I find morally deplorable? Hey it's not the workers fault right? You're comparing apples to oranges. This is not a question of a company mistreating its workers. By the same token, I could ask you why you would punish the innocent workers who didn't vote for the candidate you dislike. By refusing to do business with them, you are hurting them, and it's not their fault the candidate got elected. Even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, this is likely to drive them away, toward your political opponents, who can tell them, "See how nasty the other side is? They won't even trade with us anymore because they disagree with how we run our own country!" That attitude is essentially a large part of why Trump got elected: the Democrats' constant condescension toward a large swath of the population alienated them. If you mistreat people, they aren't going to thank you for it, they're going to hate you for it. Or, colloquially, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
  - rapind 9y ago
    I guess I'm just more cycnical (possibly pragmatic) than you, because IMO it is "apples to apples". I believe that the US was captured by corporations long before Trump made it to office, and the only way to sway corporate opinion is to hit them in the wallet. Sadly, as a foreigner, what I purchase is the most effective way to be heard. Besides, how successful is a business that blames potential customers for not buying their products? "We're gonna bomb them until they buy our cars dammit!" I also disagree with you about why Trump was elected. I hear this condescension argument all the time but I think it's total BS. I suspect it's more about jobless (white) men and is a much harder (and real) problem to solve than simply being polite.
    - alphapapa 9y ago
      > I guess I'm just more cycnical (possibly pragmatic) than you, because IMO it is "apples to apples". I believe that the US was captured by corporations long before Trump made it to office, and the only way to sway corporate opinion is to hit them in the wallet. Corporate power is indeed an issue, but I feel like you are changing the subject here. > Sadly, as a foreigner, what I purchase is the most effective way to be heard. I don't think your theory is logically coherent here. If you desire to punish the corporations which you say have captured the U.S., then which candidate was elected President is irrelevant. More than that, although Trump is an entrepreneur and far wealthier than Clinton, he is also far more independent than Clinton, far less in the pocket of the mega corporations. On this concern you should favor Trump over Clinton. > Besides, how successful is a business that blames potential customers for not buying their products? "We're gonna bomb them until they buy our cars dammit!" Sorry, I don't understand your point here. > I also disagree with you about why Trump was elected. I hear this condescension argument all the time but I think it's total BS. I suspect it's more about jobless (white) men and is a much harder (and real) problem to solve than simply being polite. Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but as a non-foreigner, I think you are completely wrong. In fact, your "jobless (white) men" line is merely repeating the leftist media's racist, sexist propaganda. Note that it is, by definition, racist and sexist. It's inherently condescending, but here you are protesting that condescension had nothing to do with it. It's disappointing that you seem to be uncritically accepting this belief. It doesn't even cohere with the data: Trump received many votes from non-whites, non-males, and the employed. The votes were split primarily along geographic lines! But don't let that stop you from blaming angry old white men for all the problems in the world. Obviously, if it weren't for them, everything would be great...
mobiplayer 9y ago
What kind of influence on voters is OK in your books? Political rallies where you lie about what you'll do and about your opponents? Discussions with friends? TV ads?
- alphapapa 9y ago
  What does any of that have to do with citizens of Nation A refusing to trade with companies in Nation B because some of the citizens of Nation B elected a leader whom the citizens of Nation A don't like? That is the kind of attitude that drives people apart, creates hostility, and eventually leads to war. In what world is that a good idea? Can you imagine Americans refusing to buy BMWs because they don't like Angela Merkel?
  - HelloNurse 9y ago
    Barely, because for the most part USA citizens are politically inert and/or incompetent and they wouldn't care, but in theory it would be perfectly normal. Some people feel guilty for wearing (or even owning) furs, supporting an "evil" country or an "evil" corp is clearly a worse conduct.
  - mobiplayer 9y ago
    You mean Americans rebranding French Fries as Freedom Fries because France didn't want to get in Irak? And this is the fucking US here, it's not a backwater country the size of a town. When the US sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. People are right to pressure others as long as it's done on legal terms.

rapind 9y ago

Sounds to me like voting with your pocket book. How is this a bad thing? Would you also object if I didn't want to purchase clothes that are manufactured in a way I find morally deplorable? Hey it's not the workers fault right?

alphapapa 9y ago
> Sounds to me like voting with your pocket book. It's very interesting that you would compare it to voting, because that means we're talking about citizens of one country "voting" for the leader of another country--which would mean interfering with another country's elections. Are you sure you want to stick with that analogy? :) This is in contrast with the traditional definition of "voting with your wallet," which refers to refusing to do business with companies you don't like. > How is this a bad thing? In a nutshell, it's bad because it further contributes to polarization and division. This becomes a self-reinforcing cycle, leading to ever more "us vs. them" thinking. Eventually it's what leads to wars. Isn't it fairly basic political theory that nations which are economically interdependent are less likely to go to war with each other? If we can't do business with anyone who has different political opinions than we do, that's a recipe for...well, war. > Would you also object if I didn't want to purchase clothes that are manufactured in a way I find morally deplorable? Hey it's not the workers fault right? You're comparing apples to oranges. This is not a question of a company mistreating its workers. By the same token, I could ask you why you would punish the innocent workers who didn't vote for the candidate you dislike. By refusing to do business with them, you are hurting them, and it's not their fault the candidate got elected. Even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, this is likely to drive them away, toward your political opponents, who can tell them, "See how nasty the other side is? They won't even trade with us anymore because they disagree with how we run our own country!" That attitude is essentially a large part of why Trump got elected: the Democrats' constant condescension toward a large swath of the population alienated them. If you mistreat people, they aren't going to thank you for it, they're going to hate you for it. Or, colloquially, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
- rapind 9y ago
  I guess I'm just more cycnical (possibly pragmatic) than you, because IMO it is "apples to apples". I believe that the US was captured by corporations long before Trump made it to office, and the only way to sway corporate opinion is to hit them in the wallet. Sadly, as a foreigner, what I purchase is the most effective way to be heard. Besides, how successful is a business that blames potential customers for not buying their products? "We're gonna bomb them until they buy our cars dammit!" I also disagree with you about why Trump was elected. I hear this condescension argument all the time but I think it's total BS. I suspect it's more about jobless (white) men and is a much harder (and real) problem to solve than simply being polite.
  - alphapapa 9y ago
    > I guess I'm just more cycnical (possibly pragmatic) than you, because IMO it is "apples to apples". I believe that the US was captured by corporations long before Trump made it to office, and the only way to sway corporate opinion is to hit them in the wallet. Corporate power is indeed an issue, but I feel like you are changing the subject here. > Sadly, as a foreigner, what I purchase is the most effective way to be heard. I don't think your theory is logically coherent here. If you desire to punish the corporations which you say have captured the U.S., then which candidate was elected President is irrelevant. More than that, although Trump is an entrepreneur and far wealthier than Clinton, he is also far more independent than Clinton, far less in the pocket of the mega corporations. On this concern you should favor Trump over Clinton. > Besides, how successful is a business that blames potential customers for not buying their products? "We're gonna bomb them until they buy our cars dammit!" Sorry, I don't understand your point here. > I also disagree with you about why Trump was elected. I hear this condescension argument all the time but I think it's total BS. I suspect it's more about jobless (white) men and is a much harder (and real) problem to solve than simply being polite. Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but as a non-foreigner, I think you are completely wrong. In fact, your "jobless (white) men" line is merely repeating the leftist media's racist, sexist propaganda. Note that it is, by definition, racist and sexist. It's inherently condescending, but here you are protesting that condescension had nothing to do with it. It's disappointing that you seem to be uncritically accepting this belief. It doesn't even cohere with the data: Trump received many votes from non-whites, non-males, and the employed. The votes were split primarily along geographic lines! But don't let that stop you from blaming angry old white men for all the problems in the world. Obviously, if it weren't for them, everything would be great...

mobiplayer 9y ago

What kind of influence on voters is OK in your books? Political rallies where you lie about what you'll do and about your opponents? Discussions with friends? TV ads?

alphapapa 9y ago
What does any of that have to do with citizens of Nation A refusing to trade with companies in Nation B because some of the citizens of Nation B elected a leader whom the citizens of Nation A don't like? That is the kind of attitude that drives people apart, creates hostility, and eventually leads to war. In what world is that a good idea? Can you imagine Americans refusing to buy BMWs because they don't like Angela Merkel?
- HelloNurse 9y ago
  Barely, because for the most part USA citizens are politically inert and/or incompetent and they wouldn't care, but in theory it would be perfectly normal. Some people feel guilty for wearing (or even owning) furs, supporting an "evil" country or an "evil" corp is clearly a worse conduct.
- mobiplayer 9y ago
  You mean Americans rebranding French Fries as Freedom Fries because France didn't want to get in Irak? And this is the fucking US here, it's not a backwater country the size of a town. When the US sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. People are right to pressure others as long as it's done on legal terms.