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The Theory of the Leisure Class by Thorstein Veblen (1899)
- mirimir 9y agoBetter URL: http://moglen.law.columbia.edu/LCS/theoryleisureclass.pdf http://moglen.law.columbia.edu/LCS/theoryleisureclass.pdf [For me, anyway, because gutenberg.org blocks VPNs.]
- jotux 9y agoThis is where the concept of Veblen Goods[1] originated. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
- anigbrowl 9y agotl;dr Why do people waste money on fancy stuff that doesn't deliver any functional advantage? To advertise their wealth and power to others for mutual future advantage.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- wavefunction 9y agoThere is also a joy and inherent value to real craftsmanship that transcends shallow desires for ostentation.
- jotux 9y agoA Veblen good, by definition, doesn't have additional value due to real craftsmanship or any other tangible characteristic. It gains value because of it's high price. Compare this Louis Vuitton leather briefcase: http://us.louisvuitton.com/eng-us/products/porte-documents-voyage-ombre-010113 http://us.louisvuitton.com/eng-us/products/porte-documents-v... To this Saddleback: http://www.saddlebackleather.com/thin-leather-briefcase http://www.saddlebackleather.com/thin-leather-briefcase 8x the price but the Saddleback likely has quality on par with, if not exceeding, the Louis. Sure, the Louis is probably very well made, but that has nothing to do with the price.
- int_19h 9y agoBack in the 90s in Russia (when this sort of thing was very much in vogue among the newly minted organized criminal / mobster class), there was a joke that went like this: - Hey man, look what a nice new tie I've got! $1500! - Dude, you're lame. They sell the same for $5k in the shop down the street.
- PhasmaFelis 9y agoIt's fascinating to me to see articles about art aficionados using advanced means (carbon-dating, etc.) to pick out visually indistinguishable fakes. If one truly loves art, I should think that looking as good as a Rembrandt would be more important than who actually held the brush.
- erdle 9y agototally different pictures though - if it's a print or even a copy painted in the last couple of decades the light will be hitting it all wrong. oil paintings are interesting in how they settle overtime and cure.
- theoh 9y agoTo craftsmanship, yes. To goods made by that craftsperson? Aren't they only ever a proxy for human skill and achievement? (beyond some basic level of usefulness) A skilled stonemason these days might find him or herself doing quite a lot of work for the wealthy, creating buildings that have traditional-style features but are not good or authentic architecture. That doesn't demean the craftsmanship involved (thankfully), and keeps the skills alive, but the end product is more or less waste.
- Fricken 9y agoYou can go to the museum to see that. If you need to own it, though, it's cuz you're doing it to advertise your wealth.
- anigbrowl 9y agoThird option: produce your own and wallow in aesthetic bliss for the low price of your materials, time, and financial stability.
- anigbrowl 9y agoYes, but that is a normal economic utility rather than the type that attaches to a Veblen good. I had a roommate years ago who made a living selling knockoffs of expensive handbags, but who would occasionally get busted and have his merchandise confiscated. (I personally think it should be legal to sell fakes but that's another story.) Anyway he switched to buy non-branded handbags, of really excellent quality, arguably as good or better than the fashionable ones. His business went well, as far as I know, but he had to sell more units to overcome the branding 'deficiency'.
- gregpilling 9y agoTL;DR - if you need to get a meeting with someone, get a Veblen good that the meeting person is into A friend gave me a fake Rolex once. He said it was exceptionally good; he had the exact same model that was real and the only difference he could see was that there was an o-ring on the winder of the real Rolex, and none on the fake. I wore it to a trade show one time, and I was honestly shocked by the positive reception I got as a human -- from every other guy who was wearing a watch!. Usually these were the guys of more importance; buyers and sellers at the executive level, or the CEOs themselves. I hadn't worn a watch since the day my phone could tell time (am old, phones in the 90s did not tell time), so I also hadn't thought about watches in years as a consequence. I can tell you that the cost of a Rolex is well worth it, from the particular point of view of 'access' to the guys with watches and hey let's talk about them . The watch club. The $40 fake I had was good enough, because who is going to unwind someone else's winder at a social gathering? Similarly other Veblen goods like a Lamborghini (rent one!) that a guy talked about as a conversation piece on a Reddit AMA a day or two ago. Whatever someone is deeply interested in, they will glom onto you if you show anything like authentic interest. If you want my attention, wear a MotoGP shirt or something from VR46. The fate of the watch? the strap broke and the watch sat in a drawer for a while. My friend offered to fix it, so I gave it back to him about 5 years ago and haven't seen it since! LOL . I haven't needed it either, so I don't care. My phone tells time :) He has promised to return it, but I think he uses it as a spare. His real one stays in the safe, 100% of the time.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago> I can tell you that the cost of a Rolex is well worth it It sounds like the cost of a fake Rolex is worth it, while a real Rolex is laughably overpriced.
- iamacynic 9y agooverpriced for who? prices are meant to discriminate. that's the whole point. but do keep in mind that a new low-end honda starts at roughly $20k, and a vintage rolex can be had for ~$5k.
- vixen99 9y agoThere are no advantages to anything aside from functional ones? You've posed & answered your own question; why not let others answer for themselves? They may have reasons entirely unconsidered by you.
- anigbrowl 9y agoMy comment was meant as an irreverent summary of Veblen's ideas, rather than expressing my personal outlook.
- analog31 9y agoSometimes I wonder if things like fashions, art, music, etc., could get us out of an economy that depends so much on carbon emission. I was once at a Mary Kay convention (as a hired musician), and a few of the people were trying to sell the band members on joining the business. I asked them if you can get a pink Prius for selling enough stuff. The answer is yes. I suggested that cosmetics were the ultimate "green" product, because you could sell something with virtually no material content for an arbitrary price, and that Mary Kay should position itself that way. Could we support an entire economy, selling luxury goods to one another, with minimal ecological cost?
- nnfy 9y agoSo you're proposing that we move to a totally shallow economy which provides little in the way of useful service, other than what is essentially wealth signaling. Meanwhile our consumption remains the same and our carbon emissions are simply offloaded onto other nations. What problem does this solve? Additionally, how would you structure an entire economy around solely exchanging goods with no material value?
- comicjk 9y agoI think the idea is to replace more-wasteful wealth signaling with less-wasteful. I don't think this is meant to be a part of the economy which everyone partakes of - it's for people who would instead buy yachts and jets. It seems possible to make private art more cool than private jets, at least in some circles. But I suspect that the overall effect on resource consumption would be smaller than OP thinks.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago"So you're proposing that we move to a totally shallow economy which provides little in the way of useful service, other than what is essentially wealth signaling." That is pretty much what we have now, basic needs can be met very cheaply in an industrialised society.
- emodendroket 9y ago
- garry 9y agoFun fact: Veblen died on Sand Hill Road.
- mirimir 9y ago> A distinction is still habitually made between industrial and non-industrial occupations; and this modern distinction is a transmuted form of the barbarian distinction between exploit and drudgery. Such employments as warfare, politics, public worship, and public merrymaking, are felt, in the popular apprehension, to differ intrinsically from the labour that has to do with elaborating the material means of life. At other points, he adds academics and capitalists to the exploit category.
- alephnil 9y agoVeblen uses the word "Barbarian" in a way I have not seen before. For example he mentions European and Japanese Feudal societies as "higher Barbarian cultures", and others as "Lower Barbarian". The common use of "Barbarian" I have seen are entirely derogatory, and not something that would have been used in a serious work like this. Anyone that know what its meaning is in this context?
- mirimir 9y agoWild guess: people who aren't technicians aka engineers and scientists. > It is the purpose of this memorandum to show, in an objective way, that under existing circumstances there need be no fear, and no hope, of an eventual overturn in America, such as would unsettle the established order and unseat the Vested Interests that now control the country's industrial system. In an earlier paper (The Dial, October 4) it has been argued that no effectual move in the direction of such an overturn can be made except on the initiative and under the direction of the country's technicians, taking action in common and on a concerted plan." The Engineers and the Price System. https://ia600303.us.archive.org/33/items/engineersandpri01veblgoog/engineersandpri01veblgoog.pdf https://ia600303.us.archive.org/33/items/engineersandpri01ve... So hey, of obvious interest here :) Edit: So this is where Stephenson gets "barbarians" in Diamond Age. Also Burroughs his technician archetypes.
- TuringTest 9y agoThe original meaning of "barbarian" was akin to "not Roman" or "foreigner" (more precisely, someone not belonging to any of the classic civilizations). Akin to "villanus" (someone living in a village), it took a derogatory tone later, as someone "uncivilized", but that was not part of its literal meaning.
- steaktartaar_ 9y agoGreek, in fact. Barbarian has it's roots in βάρβαρος, an ancient Greek onomatopoeic for "people who go bar bar bar", or people who don't speak Greek.
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- RichardHeart 9y agoSocial signalling is valuable. Signals that are expensive can be trusted over signals that are cheap. Proof of work has existed before hashcash, bitcoin, and is more than just a good solution to the byzantine generals problem.
- numeromancer 9y agoMencken on Veblen: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/53538/53538-h/53538-h.htm#Page_59 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/53538/53538-h/53538-h.htm#Pag...
- zeteo 9y agoIt's an amusing read, but he freely admits that he doesn't get Veblen and that is correct: > Do I prefer terrapin à la Maryland to fried liver because plow-hands must put up with the liver—or because the terrapin is intrinsically a more charming dose? This misses out Veblen's central argument in "The Theory". The terrapin is not intrinsically a more charming dose; in fact, many "uncultured" people would instinctively recoil at eating turtles. Same for other luxuries like lobster (a century ago, lobster was only fit for servants, and then no more than twice a week [1]). Ironically, fried fois gras is probably nowadays a more elevated dish than terrapin. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster#History
- kontorStol 9y agohttps://www.gutenberg.org/files/833/833-h/833-h.htm#link2HCH0001 https://www.gutenberg.org/files/833/833-h/833-h.htm#link2HCH...
- kontorStol 9y agoI recognized the name Veblen and saw Thorstein was the uncle to Oswald Veblen, one of the founders of the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton.