4 ms·

What is 'native'? All apple trees are Persian, in the end. Just because there are a few species that outcompete others, doesn't mean that we need to freeze what

by roel_v 10y ago

What is 'native'? All apple trees are Persian, in the end. Just because there are a few species that outcompete others, doesn't mean that we need to freeze whatever is the current state of geographic dispersion of species to the 'gold standard', that we will defend and maintain at all cost. I explicitly seek out exotic seeds to see how they will behave in my climate. Diversity is good. This whole 'native first' (or rather, 'native only') needs to die already.

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
Well, there's quite a few examples of invasive species that have constituted significant threats to human, animal or plant health, for instance. Like malaria, the bubonic plague, minor nuisances like that. For some examples from more recent times, the US timber industry has spent tens of millions of dollars fighting the Asian long-horned beetle, the citrus industry has an extensive quarantine program in place fighting Asian Citrus Psyllid, invasive varroa mite are part of the reason for the strong decline in honeybee populations, etc. Now you may say, "but I'm not importing mosquitos, just seeds", but really with Chinese seed suppliers with unknown QA and no knowledge of the ecosystem in your region, you run a real risk of introducing fungi, bacteria, insects etc. that can spread and do serious damage. Do us all a favour and buy seeds in your own country, where at least some QA and vetting for big risk factors has been performed.
- roel_v 10y ago
  Diseases are just that, diseases, not invasive or not. 'Invasive' is about competition, not direct attack. Goes for all your examples. So if you're saying 'don't import diseases' - well yeah. But that's not the point here. Please tell which fungi, bacteria and insects spread through the vector you propose. Where do you think the seed you buy in your local garden center comes from?
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    I already gave several examples of bad stuff that spreads through the proposed vectors. If you would like some literature to back this up, here you go. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/070151/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/070151/full http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800904003027 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800904... http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vbz.2011.0814 http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vbz.2011.0814 The second one of those estimates the economic damage caused by invasive species in the US as $97 billion during the 20th century. If you would rather like something written for the general public, here is an info page from the Australian government - or you could just try taking your imported seeds with you in your hand luggage when flying into Sydney, and see how well that goes. http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive-species/diseases-fungi-and-parasites http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive-species/... The seeds you buy at your local garden center are subject to national and international laws, regulations and agreements specifically written based on work of hundreds of scientists to prevent as much as possible the introduction of diseases and other bad things that don't exist where you live. The garden center has to follow these regulations (and document compliance) or they get fined. When you buy seeds on eBay or AliExpress or wherever, there simply are no regulations on the sellers. Do you dispute this simple fact?
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    Some facts: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=entodistmasters http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
sbov 10y ago
Invasive species tend to be a term used for things that thrive and choke out all competition and ultimately come to dominate and severely alter the landscape. Ultimately they tend to be bad for diversity. Sorta like humans, except in plant/other animal form.
- roel_v 10y ago
  Strawman. GP was saying 'don't buy overseas seeds because they are species that are not native to wherever you are importing them to'. Which doesn't make sense - whether a species out competes another doesn't depend on where it's from. Sure, when you introduce some species into certain ecosystems, those ecosystems will change. Nobody's saying you shouldn't think and/or manage. What I'm saying is that the whole 'exotic is bad' line of thinking ultimately boils down to the naturalistic fallacy.
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    Exotic is bad when it costs the US economy $167bn a year, which is a realistic estimate of the amount lost because of the effects of invasive species of all kinds. If you think that's a "naturalistic fallacy" perhaps you need to brush up on your economics.
verinus 10y ago
this change should occur naturally and not be man made- we don't understand complex eco-systems enough to make such servere changes. there is a reason why certain things are native- I would suggest a more humble approach!
- roel_v 10y ago
  Right, because apple trees took a stroll across the Mediterranean to settle in Europe?
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    No, obviously humans brought them over. Those same humans also brought the rat all over Europe, and with it the Bubonic Plague aka. the Black Death - which killed a third of the human population - full stop. Think about that one for a while.

by roel_v 10y ago

semi-extrinsic 10y ago

Well, there's quite a few examples of invasive species that have constituted significant threats to human, animal or plant health, for instance. Like malaria, the bubonic plague, minor nuisances like that. For some examples from more recent times, the US timber industry has spent tens of millions of dollars fighting the Asian long-horned beetle, the citrus industry has an extensive quarantine program in place fighting Asian Citrus Psyllid, invasive varroa mite are part of the reason for the strong decline in honeybee populations, etc. Now you may say, "but I'm not importing mosquitos, just seeds", but really with Chinese seed suppliers with unknown QA and no knowledge of the ecosystem in your region, you run a real risk of introducing fungi, bacteria, insects etc. that can spread and do serious damage. Do us all a favour and buy seeds in your own country, where at least some QA and vetting for big risk factors has been performed.

roel_v 10y ago
Diseases are just that, diseases, not invasive or not. 'Invasive' is about competition, not direct attack. Goes for all your examples. So if you're saying 'don't import diseases' - well yeah. But that's not the point here. Please tell which fungi, bacteria and insects spread through the vector you propose. Where do you think the seed you buy in your local garden center comes from?
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  I already gave several examples of bad stuff that spreads through the proposed vectors. If you would like some literature to back this up, here you go. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/070151/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/070151/full http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800904003027 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800904... http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vbz.2011.0814 http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vbz.2011.0814 The second one of those estimates the economic damage caused by invasive species in the US as $97 billion during the 20th century. If you would rather like something written for the general public, here is an info page from the Australian government - or you could just try taking your imported seeds with you in your hand luggage when flying into Sydney, and see how well that goes. http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive-species/diseases-fungi-and-parasites http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive-species/... The seeds you buy at your local garden center are subject to national and international laws, regulations and agreements specifically written based on work of hundreds of scientists to prevent as much as possible the introduction of diseases and other bad things that don't exist where you live. The garden center has to follow these regulations (and document compliance) or they get fined. When you buy seeds on eBay or AliExpress or wherever, there simply are no regulations on the sellers. Do you dispute this simple fact?
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  Some facts: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=entodistmasters http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

sbov 10y ago

Invasive species tend to be a term used for things that thrive and choke out all competition and ultimately come to dominate and severely alter the landscape. Ultimately they tend to be bad for diversity. Sorta like humans, except in plant/other animal form.

roel_v 10y ago
Strawman. GP was saying 'don't buy overseas seeds because they are species that are not native to wherever you are importing them to'. Which doesn't make sense - whether a species out competes another doesn't depend on where it's from. Sure, when you introduce some species into certain ecosystems, those ecosystems will change. Nobody's saying you shouldn't think and/or manage. What I'm saying is that the whole 'exotic is bad' line of thinking ultimately boils down to the naturalistic fallacy.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  Exotic is bad when it costs the US economy $167bn a year, which is a realistic estimate of the amount lost because of the effects of invasive species of all kinds. If you think that's a "naturalistic fallacy" perhaps you need to brush up on your economics.

verinus 10y ago

this change should occur naturally and not be man made- we don't understand complex eco-systems enough to make such servere changes. there is a reason why certain things are native- I would suggest a more humble approach!

roel_v 10y ago
Right, because apple trees took a stroll across the Mediterranean to settle in Europe?
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  No, obviously humans brought them over. Those same humans also brought the rat all over Europe, and with it the Bubonic Plague aka. the Black Death - which killed a third of the human population - full stop. Think about that one for a while.