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I think the issue is proximity to a world class city. The economic growth that we see in bigger cities leads to lots of opportunities for advancement. These are

by jmulvi 9y ago

I think the issue is proximity to a world class city. The economic growth that we see in bigger cities leads to lots of opportunities for advancement. These are the places smart young people move to after they graduate university, the places where many of the top universities are based, they are also expensive due to this success. The suburbs are finding it harder to attract educated 20 somethings because of a lack of professional opportunities as well as changing lifestyle trends. I think there will be a graying-out of the suburbs as they get older until property prices become affordable to young professionals and the work/commute times become more bearable. I have no idea why working remotely is not more common in 2017 but that would be a massive improvement over the ridiculous commutes so many people have to suffer through.

nostromo 9y ago
This narrative might feel true, but isn't supported by actual data. https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/think-millennials-prefer-the-city-think-again/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/think-millennials-prefer...
- Swizec 9y ago
  My theory as an outside observer has always been that [white] Americans are like salmon. They are born in the suburbs, they move to the city to find mates and build careers, then they move to the suburbs to have children. As an American-in-training I too would be terrified of having a kid in a place like San Francisco. Ain't nobody got money for that. That said, when I did live in the suburbs for a while, I found it to be depressing and miserable. But I grew up in a small city, 10min walk from as downtown as it gets, so I'm biased.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    It's not just Americans. The dream of having a place in the country that is your own personal property is about as close to a cross-cultural norm as you can find. English country houses, Roman villas, French royal hunting lodges... even the nomenklatura in the Soviet Union had their dachas. Americans were just the first culture to make it practical for large numbers of people to actually do it.
    - avn2109 9y ago
      There's a big difference between having a country dacha as your second home and living in a gross tasteless suburb as your primary residence. The presence of all the other people ruins the dacha vibe.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        Actually, many dachas are at McMansion density or higher.
      - taway_1212 9y ago
        > gross tasteless suburb Wow, what you describe as gross tasteless suburb is I imagine a dream come true for 90% of world population.
        Arizhel 9y ago
        Only because they haven't actually lived in it yet. It's one of those things that looks great at first glance, but only after actually living it for a while do you realize what a dystopian hell it is.
        Turing_Machine 9y ago
        "Only because they haven't actually lived in it yet." There are multiple generations of people who have willingly lived in suburbs. I repeat: their tastes are not the same as yours.
      - Turing_Machine 9y ago
        "living in a gross tasteless suburb as your primary residence" People buy houses in those "gross, tasteless suburbs" by choice. No one is putting a gun to their head. Their tastes are not yours.
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    > [white] Americans are like salmon. They are born in the suburbs, they move to the city to find mates and build careers, then they move to the suburbs to have children. I think the difference is that Americans are forced to do that dance, even the ones that actively don't want this. Kids are crazy expensive to have and raise. Just child daycare alone starts at around $1,000/month and goes up from there. Housing costs are so high in every single city that if you want to give your kid a bedroom of any kind, you are effectively required to live in the suburbs, unless your extremely wealthy. If you do have the money to stay, then comes the network. Housing in cities gets hard to find at all (no one wants to live near you, since you bring the screaming infant into the building). And American buildings are all built like shit, so everyone can hear everything. Childcare isn't just expensive -- it's difficult to find at all. (As one example, Seattle daycare waitlists are 2 years long in some cases - http://crosscut.com/2014/09/parents-seek-alternatives-tough-seattle-childcare http://crosscut.com/2014/09/parents-seek-alternatives-tough-... ) And we haven't even started on the mess that is schooling. Generally, American society treat parents and children like shit, and then forces families to live elsewhere. It's no surprise that those parents just up-and-leave to form their own little enclaves out in the suburbs, where they can at least try to remove some of that pain. > That said, when I did live in the suburbs for a while, I found it to be depressing and miserable. Well yeah. It can be depressing and miserable to be poor or working-class-poor. But at least suburbs are a safe and somewhat-affordable place to live. It's not like there is an alternative -- there are no functional cities willing to house people. And especially no cities willing to house families at all.
- geodel 9y ago
  I agree. This whole city thing always looks like media generated hype to me.
  - umeshunni 9y ago
    Media are based in the city, their reporters (and their friends) live in the city and in their worldview, everyone lives in the city?
- jmulvi 9y ago
  You are missing the point. I said "educated young people... move to world class cities". These world class cities are also expensive. You pay a lot to live in New York, Los Angeles or London. Unfortunately, this lack of affordable housing pushes out all but the highest paid workers. There is some social housing and other benefits to help the very poor. Everyone in the middle gets squeezed out of the big cities, especially when they marry and/or have kids and need more space. So, a lot more people would like to live in San Francisco for example than can currently afford it. This is why less well educated young people are moving to the newest suburbs. It's what they can afford. These new suburbs often have the fewest and lowest paying employment opportunities so it's a long term drain on the economy and future growth.
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rhino369 9y ago
There are only three world class cities in America.
- santaclaus 9y ago
  America has lots of rad cities with strong economic opportunities: NYC, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Austin, Denver, ...
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    I live in the Boston area, and the only things that are world-class here are the Ivy League universities and Massachusetts General Hospital. This place doesn't deserve anything remotely like the ego it actually has. (Take note: I'm originally from New York. There is a rivalry at work here.)
    - sremani 9y ago
      As a person who had the misfortune of taking Public transport from La Guardia to Manhattan, I would not label entire NYC "world-class" unless I get to append it with "mess".
      - mirimir 9y ago
        Jamaica LIRR station, right?
        gipp 9y ago
        That's JFK. Considerably easier, despite being considerably further away.
      - greglindahl 9y ago
        You should have taken the private express bus, and instead you complain about your poor choice? Eh?

by jmulvi 9y ago

nostromo 9y ago

This narrative might feel true, but isn't supported by actual data. https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/think-millennials-prefer-the-city-think-again/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/think-millennials-prefer...

Swizec 9y ago
My theory as an outside observer has always been that [white] Americans are like salmon. They are born in the suburbs, they move to the city to find mates and build careers, then they move to the suburbs to have children. As an American-in-training I too would be terrified of having a kid in a place like San Francisco. Ain't nobody got money for that. That said, when I did live in the suburbs for a while, I found it to be depressing and miserable. But I grew up in a small city, 10min walk from as downtown as it gets, so I'm biased.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  It's not just Americans. The dream of having a place in the country that is your own personal property is about as close to a cross-cultural norm as you can find. English country houses, Roman villas, French royal hunting lodges... even the nomenklatura in the Soviet Union had their dachas. Americans were just the first culture to make it practical for large numbers of people to actually do it.
  - avn2109 9y ago
    There's a big difference between having a country dacha as your second home and living in a gross tasteless suburb as your primary residence. The presence of all the other people ruins the dacha vibe.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Actually, many dachas are at McMansion density or higher.
    - taway_1212 9y ago
      > gross tasteless suburb Wow, what you describe as gross tasteless suburb is I imagine a dream come true for 90% of world population.
      - Arizhel 9y ago
        Only because they haven't actually lived in it yet. It's one of those things that looks great at first glance, but only after actually living it for a while do you realize what a dystopian hell it is.
        Turing_Machine 9y ago
        "Only because they haven't actually lived in it yet." There are multiple generations of people who have willingly lived in suburbs. I repeat: their tastes are not the same as yours.
    - Turing_Machine 9y ago
      "living in a gross tasteless suburb as your primary residence" People buy houses in those "gross, tasteless suburbs" by choice. No one is putting a gun to their head. Their tastes are not yours.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  > [white] Americans are like salmon. They are born in the suburbs, they move to the city to find mates and build careers, then they move to the suburbs to have children. I think the difference is that Americans are forced to do that dance, even the ones that actively don't want this. Kids are crazy expensive to have and raise. Just child daycare alone starts at around $1,000/month and goes up from there. Housing costs are so high in every single city that if you want to give your kid a bedroom of any kind, you are effectively required to live in the suburbs, unless your extremely wealthy. If you do have the money to stay, then comes the network. Housing in cities gets hard to find at all (no one wants to live near you, since you bring the screaming infant into the building). And American buildings are all built like shit, so everyone can hear everything. Childcare isn't just expensive -- it's difficult to find at all. (As one example, Seattle daycare waitlists are 2 years long in some cases - http://crosscut.com/2014/09/parents-seek-alternatives-tough-seattle-childcare http://crosscut.com/2014/09/parents-seek-alternatives-tough-... ) And we haven't even started on the mess that is schooling. Generally, American society treat parents and children like shit, and then forces families to live elsewhere. It's no surprise that those parents just up-and-leave to form their own little enclaves out in the suburbs, where they can at least try to remove some of that pain. > That said, when I did live in the suburbs for a while, I found it to be depressing and miserable. Well yeah. It can be depressing and miserable to be poor or working-class-poor. But at least suburbs are a safe and somewhat-affordable place to live. It's not like there is an alternative -- there are no functional cities willing to house people. And especially no cities willing to house families at all.
geodel 9y ago
I agree. This whole city thing always looks like media generated hype to me.
- umeshunni 9y ago
  Media are based in the city, their reporters (and their friends) live in the city and in their worldview, everyone lives in the city?
jmulvi 9y ago
You are missing the point. I said "educated young people... move to world class cities". These world class cities are also expensive. You pay a lot to live in New York, Los Angeles or London. Unfortunately, this lack of affordable housing pushes out all but the highest paid workers. There is some social housing and other benefits to help the very poor. Everyone in the middle gets squeezed out of the big cities, especially when they marry and/or have kids and need more space. So, a lot more people would like to live in San Francisco for example than can currently afford it. This is why less well educated young people are moving to the newest suburbs. It's what they can afford. These new suburbs often have the fewest and lowest paying employment opportunities so it's a long term drain on the economy and future growth.
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rhino369 9y ago

There are only three world class cities in America.

santaclaus 9y ago
America has lots of rad cities with strong economic opportunities: NYC, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Austin, Denver, ...
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  I live in the Boston area, and the only things that are world-class here are the Ivy League universities and Massachusetts General Hospital. This place doesn't deserve anything remotely like the ego it actually has. (Take note: I'm originally from New York. There is a rivalry at work here.)
  - sremani 9y ago
    As a person who had the misfortune of taking Public transport from La Guardia to Manhattan, I would not label entire NYC "world-class" unless I get to append it with "mess".
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Jamaica LIRR station, right?
      - gipp 9y ago
        That's JFK. Considerably easier, despite being considerably further away.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      You should have taken the private express bus, and instead you complain about your poor choice? Eh?