6 ms·

Japanese Economic Takeoff After 1945 (2002)

35 points by bootload 9y ago

partycoder 9y ago
They just re-focused all their effort from being a militaristic power to being a trade power.
- interfixus 9y ago
  Oh yeah, they just did that. Simple as pie.
  - partycoder 9y ago
    Let me rephrase it: They took their existing mindset/hard work, stopped spending it on military (in part due to a paradigm shift and also restrictions imposed by foreign powers) and started spending it purely on industrialization, technology, infrastructure, trade, education, science... a self-reinforcing effect that made them incrementally more productive.
    - interfixus 9y ago
      No disagreement on the first part. I remmain to be convinced that Japanese demography will prove of any negative consequence whatsoever in the long run. globally, population neds to shrink. The Japanese are showing us how to. The West how to not.
Safety1stClyde 9y ago
> After the war, they were taught to redirect their devotion to the nation from its military expansion to economic expansion. They were constantly exhorted that they were a homogeneous people and superior to all other Asians, and superior even to the whites. To establish their national position in the postwar world, they should not be very concerned about individual well being, thus should not mind the high cost they have to pay for consumer goods that cost less abroad. It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this. "Constantly exhorted ... that they were superior to all other Asians" is almost certainly pure fiction.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  > It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this. "Constantly exhorted ... that they were superior to all other Asians" is almost certainly pure fiction. I'm not an expert, but it is consistent with cultural and historical details I've heard. It's ironic that you say "It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this" yet don't attempt to provide any evidence for your claim that it "is almost certainly pure fiction".
  - Safety1stClyde 9y ago
    > I'm not an expert, but it is consistent with cultural and historical details I've heard. I've heard several times that people born under the astrological sign Pisces tend to be confused because their symbol is two fishes going in opposite directions. > It's ironic that you say "It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this" yet don't attempt to provide any evidence for your claim that it "is almost certainly pure fiction". Even Alanis Morissette could not claim that it is in the slightest bit ironic. The person making the claim is the person required to come up with evidence for it, not the person disputing the claim. What evidence do you have that Pisces people are NOT confused and lacking direction?
    - jamesrcole 9y ago
      "I'm not an expert" means "I am not an expert", not that I know nothing on these matters. I've read about Japanese culture quite a few times in the past. There's a lot of information out there about historical and present Japanese attitudes towards other races and cultures. Regarding your second point, you made the positive claim that it's "almost certainly pure fiction". If you're going to make a positive claim and not provide any evidence, while criticising other people for doing the same thing, then that's ironic.
      - Safety1stClyde 9y ago
        > "I'm not an expert" means "I am not an expert", not that I know nothing on these matters. I've read about Japanese culture quite a few times in the past. There's a lot of information out there about historical and present Japanese attitudes towards other races and cultures. Then perhaps you can provide a shred of evidence that the Japanese people in postwar Japan were "constantly exhorted" that they were superior to other asians. > Regarding your second point, you made the positive claim that it's "almost certainly pure fiction". If you're going to make a positive claim and not provide any evidence, while criticising other people for doing the same thing, then that's ironic. The claim that people born under the star sign Pisces are easily confused is almost certainly pure fiction. Confabulating the words "almost certainly pure fiction" into a positive claim on my part is pointless semantic game-playing.
Razengan 9y ago
Some pictures to put it in perspective: [0] That country's recovery from being the only nation ever to be nuclear-bombed, to becoming the world's second best economy, while peacefully maintaining some of the world's safest, cleanest and most orderly cities, is one of mankind's most admirable success stories. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/japanpics/comments/59l1am/historical_photos_of_postwar_japan/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanpics/comments/59l1am/historica...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- shrewduser 9y ago
  What does second best economy mean?
  - hencq 9y ago
    They mean second largest GDP, which Japan was for a while before being overtaken by China.
- ganfortran 9y ago
  To be honest, while Japan's achievement is impressive, Western Europe enjoys the same level of revitalization thanks to pretty much the same reasons, which I see as an indicator that Japan's success is not that special during the post-war era. The communist takeover of mainland China and the Korean War all drives US's decision to make Japan its influence hub in Asia and pouring tons of money/tech/resources into it. In that sense Japan's success also attributes to a lot of external factors that need to be inspected under historical context.
elvinyung 9y ago
There's a very good article[1] by William Gibson on post-Lost Decade Japan. It even reads like the first few chapters of Neuromancer. [1] https://www.wired.com/2001/09/gibson/ https://www.wired.com/2001/09/gibson/
flippyhead 9y ago
This is the main reason I decided to learn Japanese and then live there for a year of college.
branchless 9y ago
Princes of Yen: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY Rise then neoliberal fall.
- madads 9y ago
  It really was a great way to run their economy.
  - branchless 9y ago
    Yes, and the neoliberal way is dire, except for the rentiers.
akamaka 9y ago
If you're interested in this sort of subject, Thomas McCraw's book Creating Modern Capitalism: How Entrepreneurs, Companies, and Countries Triumphed in Three Industrial Revolutions gives excellent overviews of how the economies of Japan and Germany operated before, during, and after the war. One interesting and counter-intuitive fact I learned is that both countries came out of the war with a significantly greater industrial capacity than they had beforehand. Despite the enormous devastation, the wartime build-up was even more immense, and left both countries poised for recovery.
calinet6 9y ago
What was the impact of management and efficiency of operation, production process, and improvement process within these companies? Surely not none. In the decades post WWII they were simply able to produce better product faster and with more predictability and consistency—that was not an accident, nor was it simply capacity, world economy, or internal policy. "If Japan Can, Why Can't We?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcG_Pmt_Ny4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcG_Pmt_Ny4 The opportunity still exists to make a sea change in industry through the widespread improvement of the management of people.
truthexposer 9y ago
This article fails to mention the vast amount of money the US poured into Japan to make Japan a base of US influence in Southeast Asia. Domestic peace, maybe, but the other side of the whole international story is a less happy picture
- nihonde 9y ago
  Why is it so difficult to simply give credit where it's due? There are plenty of countries that take huge amounts of assistance that fail all day long. Would you also attribute American success to the spoils of war, colonialism, Manifest Destiny and African slavery, etc.?
  - user982 9y ago
    > Would you also attribute American success to the spoils of war, colonialism, Manifest Destiny and African slavery, etc.? ...yes?
  - nsp 9y ago
    Absolutely, wouldn't you?
    - nihonde 9y ago
      It's not incorrect but it's dismissive of the thoughtful, hard work that's necessary to pull off a success. Every big opportunity doesn't equal a big win. Also, it's easy to take a hard-won effort for granted as an inevitability.
      - geofft 9y ago
        It's only dismissive if you think of events as having a single cause. America's success relied, absolutely, on African slavery and on the removing the indigenous populations that were in its way. There are many other countries that engaged in slavery and population removal that didn't succeed to the extent America did, yes; you are correct. But there are also many other countries that simply had Enlightenment ideals and a democracy and didn't succeed to the extent America did, and many more that simply had thoughtful, hard work and didn't succeed at all.
throwaway323444 9y ago
"Princes of Yen" ( 円の支配者) has a more cynical view of things. I'd definitely recommend it, if you're the "conspiracy theorist" sort. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY Some of Richard Werner's and Karel van Wolferen's lectures might be interesting too. Our society is inclined to attribute success to some intrinsic nature (race, culture, language..). Japan's successful ? It must be Zen. China not ? Must be Confucianism, shame-based culture. Now China is ? Ah it must be Confucianism, collectivism. India is not successful ? It must be Hindooism. They have Sanskrit ? Ah it must be the Aryans. The Native Americans died out ? Ah it must be their immune system. The play is clear. Japan's success is likely due to the way MacArthur normalized its war-economy, and because of how it was guided in the post-war years. Ditto with Korea/China/Thailand/ and now Vietnam/India (and other SE countries). I haven't seen a tick of anything "native" at the heart of it, even though nationalism dictates that the citizens be deluded into believing these things.

35 points by bootload 9y ago

partycoder 9y ago

They just re-focused all their effort from being a militaristic power to being a trade power.

interfixus 9y ago
Oh yeah, they just did that. Simple as pie.
- partycoder 9y ago
  Let me rephrase it: They took their existing mindset/hard work, stopped spending it on military (in part due to a paradigm shift and also restrictions imposed by foreign powers) and started spending it purely on industrialization, technology, infrastructure, trade, education, science... a self-reinforcing effect that made them incrementally more productive.
  - interfixus 9y ago
    No disagreement on the first part. I remmain to be convinced that Japanese demography will prove of any negative consequence whatsoever in the long run. globally, population neds to shrink. The Japanese are showing us how to. The West how to not.

Safety1stClyde 9y ago

> After the war, they were taught to redirect their devotion to the nation from its military expansion to economic expansion. They were constantly exhorted that they were a homogeneous people and superior to all other Asians, and superior even to the whites. To establish their national position in the postwar world, they should not be very concerned about individual well being, thus should not mind the high cost they have to pay for consumer goods that cost less abroad. It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this. "Constantly exhorted ... that they were superior to all other Asians" is almost certainly pure fiction.

jamesrcole 9y ago
> It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this. "Constantly exhorted ... that they were superior to all other Asians" is almost certainly pure fiction. I'm not an expert, but it is consistent with cultural and historical details I've heard. It's ironic that you say "It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this" yet don't attempt to provide any evidence for your claim that it "is almost certainly pure fiction".
- Safety1stClyde 9y ago
  > I'm not an expert, but it is consistent with cultural and historical details I've heard. I've heard several times that people born under the astrological sign Pisces tend to be confused because their symbol is two fishes going in opposite directions. > It's ironic that you say "It would be nice to have a shred of evidence for claims like this" yet don't attempt to provide any evidence for your claim that it "is almost certainly pure fiction". Even Alanis Morissette could not claim that it is in the slightest bit ironic. The person making the claim is the person required to come up with evidence for it, not the person disputing the claim. What evidence do you have that Pisces people are NOT confused and lacking direction?
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    "I'm not an expert" means "I am not an expert", not that I know nothing on these matters. I've read about Japanese culture quite a few times in the past. There's a lot of information out there about historical and present Japanese attitudes towards other races and cultures. Regarding your second point, you made the positive claim that it's "almost certainly pure fiction". If you're going to make a positive claim and not provide any evidence, while criticising other people for doing the same thing, then that's ironic.
    - Safety1stClyde 9y ago
      > "I'm not an expert" means "I am not an expert", not that I know nothing on these matters. I've read about Japanese culture quite a few times in the past. There's a lot of information out there about historical and present Japanese attitudes towards other races and cultures. Then perhaps you can provide a shred of evidence that the Japanese people in postwar Japan were "constantly exhorted" that they were superior to other asians. > Regarding your second point, you made the positive claim that it's "almost certainly pure fiction". If you're going to make a positive claim and not provide any evidence, while criticising other people for doing the same thing, then that's ironic. The claim that people born under the star sign Pisces are easily confused is almost certainly pure fiction. Confabulating the words "almost certainly pure fiction" into a positive claim on my part is pointless semantic game-playing.

Razengan 9y ago

Some pictures to put it in perspective: [0] That country's recovery from being the only nation ever to be nuclear-bombed, to becoming the world's second best economy, while peacefully maintaining some of the world's safest, cleanest and most orderly cities, is one of mankind's most admirable success stories. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/japanpics/comments/59l1am/historical_photos_of_postwar_japan/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanpics/comments/59l1am/historica...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
shrewduser 9y ago
What does second best economy mean?
- hencq 9y ago
  They mean second largest GDP, which Japan was for a while before being overtaken by China.
ganfortran 9y ago
To be honest, while Japan's achievement is impressive, Western Europe enjoys the same level of revitalization thanks to pretty much the same reasons, which I see as an indicator that Japan's success is not that special during the post-war era. The communist takeover of mainland China and the Korean War all drives US's decision to make Japan its influence hub in Asia and pouring tons of money/tech/resources into it. In that sense Japan's success also attributes to a lot of external factors that need to be inspected under historical context.

elvinyung 9y ago

There's a very good article[1] by William Gibson on post-Lost Decade Japan. It even reads like the first few chapters of Neuromancer. [1] https://www.wired.com/2001/09/gibson/ https://www.wired.com/2001/09/gibson/

flippyhead 9y ago

This is the main reason I decided to learn Japanese and then live there for a year of college.

branchless 9y ago

Princes of Yen: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY Rise then neoliberal fall.

madads 9y ago
It really was a great way to run their economy.
- branchless 9y ago
  Yes, and the neoliberal way is dire, except for the rentiers.

akamaka 9y ago

If you're interested in this sort of subject, Thomas McCraw's book Creating Modern Capitalism: How Entrepreneurs, Companies, and Countries Triumphed in Three Industrial Revolutions gives excellent overviews of how the economies of Japan and Germany operated before, during, and after the war. One interesting and counter-intuitive fact I learned is that both countries came out of the war with a significantly greater industrial capacity than they had beforehand. Despite the enormous devastation, the wartime build-up was even more immense, and left both countries poised for recovery.

calinet6 9y ago

What was the impact of management and efficiency of operation, production process, and improvement process within these companies? Surely not none. In the decades post WWII they were simply able to produce better product faster and with more predictability and consistency—that was not an accident, nor was it simply capacity, world economy, or internal policy. "If Japan Can, Why Can't We?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcG_Pmt_Ny4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcG_Pmt_Ny4 The opportunity still exists to make a sea change in industry through the widespread improvement of the management of people.

truthexposer 9y ago

This article fails to mention the vast amount of money the US poured into Japan to make Japan a base of US influence in Southeast Asia. Domestic peace, maybe, but the other side of the whole international story is a less happy picture

nihonde 9y ago
Why is it so difficult to simply give credit where it's due? There are plenty of countries that take huge amounts of assistance that fail all day long. Would you also attribute American success to the spoils of war, colonialism, Manifest Destiny and African slavery, etc.?
- user982 9y ago
  > Would you also attribute American success to the spoils of war, colonialism, Manifest Destiny and African slavery, etc.? ...yes?
- nsp 9y ago
  Absolutely, wouldn't you?
  - nihonde 9y ago
    It's not incorrect but it's dismissive of the thoughtful, hard work that's necessary to pull off a success. Every big opportunity doesn't equal a big win. Also, it's easy to take a hard-won effort for granted as an inevitability.
    - geofft 9y ago
      It's only dismissive if you think of events as having a single cause. America's success relied, absolutely, on African slavery and on the removing the indigenous populations that were in its way. There are many other countries that engaged in slavery and population removal that didn't succeed to the extent America did, yes; you are correct. But there are also many other countries that simply had Enlightenment ideals and a democracy and didn't succeed to the extent America did, and many more that simply had thoughtful, hard work and didn't succeed at all.

throwaway323444 9y ago

"Princes of Yen" ( 円の支配者) has a more cynical view of things. I'd definitely recommend it, if you're the "conspiracy theorist" sort. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY Some of Richard Werner's and Karel van Wolferen's lectures might be interesting too. Our society is inclined to attribute success to some intrinsic nature (race, culture, language..). Japan's successful ? It must be Zen. China not ? Must be Confucianism, shame-based culture. Now China is ? Ah it must be Confucianism, collectivism. India is not successful ? It must be Hindooism. They have Sanskrit ? Ah it must be the Aryans. The Native Americans died out ? Ah it must be their immune system. The play is clear. Japan's success is likely due to the way MacArthur normalized its war-economy, and because of how it was guided in the post-war years. Ditto with Korea/China/Thailand/ and now Vietnam/India (and other SE countries). I haven't seen a tick of anything "native" at the heart of it, even though nationalism dictates that the citizens be deluded into believing these things.