4 ms·

That's not questioning, that's rejecting wholesale without a proper argument as to why. And frankly I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athlei

by jolux 10y ago

That's not questioning, that's rejecting wholesale without a proper argument as to why. And frankly I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athleisure and payday loans, and it seems to me you'd have to be pretty damn fucking self-deluded to think they're remotely comparable.

devoply 10y ago
it's a good that a demographic buys. that's the way that ethically bereft corporations see it. i would even guess that this is how zuck sees it. people who buy jay-z buy obama. people with lower income buy payday loans. there is nothing ethical about any of this unless you want to add the ethical dimension. corporations are expected not to. and yet the data is allowing them more and more to target these "opportunities". i wanted to catch some flies over the weekend. i used some soap and vinegar as the vinegar attracts them and the soap breaks the surface tension to drown them. corporations act much the same way. perhaps we need to see them as predators rather than someone looking to solve our problems, much like flies should see me. i don't provide what they want, but they don't see it that way until it's too late. we sell bad food to overweight people. facebook can help with that. we also sell diets to overweight people. facebook can help with that too. either we add an ethical dimension to business or quit criticizing marketers for doing what they are expected to be doing. i would even go as far as to argue that a system based on desire is not a good system. as the case with the flies, we can be led to death through our desires and various drives that have another purpose, but have been subverted to achive different objectives. whether as individuals or as a civilization.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  >>it's a good that a demographic buys. Oxygen and carbon monoxide are both gases. One of them is poisonous to humans.
  - devoply 10y ago
    Corporations will sell you just enough rope to hang yourself unless the government steps in and tells them not to through regulation. But that's the antithesis of business, neo-liberal economics will argue. Canada still sells asbestos to third world countries for instance.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      Apparently asbestos mining in Canada has ended. Asbestos opponents and those weary of seeing Canada's mesothelioma rate rise celebrated in 2011 when the country's asbestos industry ground to a standstill. Canada's last two remaining active mines, the Jeffrey Mine in Asbestos, Quebec, and the Lac d'amiante du Canada in the nearby town of Thetford Mines, Quebec, shut down because of financial, labor and development issues — the first time in 130 years that the Canadian asbestos production stalled.[1] 1. https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/ https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    Are you suggesting that pay day loans should be illegal or advertisements for them should? If not why not advertise them to the audience that is apparently interested in it?
    - pvg 10y ago
      There's a difference between an interest in yoga pants and an 'interest' in predatory loans or military service for lack of other options.
      - ajmurmann 10y ago
        Yeah I get that it is unfortunate to say the least that people need/want these loans. However, what is the right thing to do about the loans? If they are predatory, maybe they should be illegal. But who am I to tell people what they can and cannot do with their money? That would be rather patronizing. If we assume that people getting these loans are grown adults why shouldn't we allow people offering them to advertise to the people most interested in them? Is it ethically "better" if even wealthy women from the Marina see the ads despite everyone knowing they don't care about pay day loans for purposes other than discussing then on HN? I think it's honestly a really hard ethical question that I don't see a obvious answer to.
        pvg 10y ago
        If you're an advertising platform, you can choose what sort of products are advertised on it. All of them do. You can, quite reasonably, decline to advertise things that are unethical. For instance, predatory loans. You are choosing not to profit off the misery of others. This is not nearly as complicated as you make it out to be.
        prostoalex 10y ago
        Will the target demographics universally and unequivocally benefit when online access to such loans is cut off? Other choices might include an even more predatory local check-cashing place and a guy named Vinnie who seems to own a lot of baseball bats for someone that never plays baseball.
  - dualogy 10y ago
    Not to detract or digress, but oxygen is damaging to cellular life as well, just long term. If nothing else gets you beforehand, with age as all mammals "we caramelize (glycation) & we go rancid" (oxidation). When photosynthesizing microorganisms emerged and oxygenated the planet, it likely wiped out 90% of life as it existed pre-oxygen (not multicellular back then --- which could well predominantly be an adaptation to protect weaker "inner" cells against oxygen, anyway --- the other great adaptation was proto-mitochondria getting an actual massive energy boost from burning oxygen rather than being burned by it, and here we are today!)
- pinewurst 10y ago
  Which makes Zuck admirably qualified to be our next US President - his "Meet The Proles" tour is now in progress
- deegles 10y ago
  Facebook: Connecting the world ... to advertisers!
- obmelvin 10y ago
  yes, most things are goods that people can buy at their own discretion. However, payday loans are predatory and should not be considered in the same category as unhealthy food, expensive clothing, etc.
  - devoply 10y ago
    i could argue that addictive foods are similarly predatory. they have long lasting impact on the health of a person the same way that payday loans have on their economic health. predatory is arbitrary, the question is what is the impact of the harm. and can people be expected to control themselves or at least regulate themselves when presented with the option, so as to act in their best interest. for many things in the economy i don't believe this to be the case. yet business gets done and the system at least appears to continue to function. people learn from their mistakes and move on if the damage isn't too great. or they get caught up and stuck and that's a problem that needs regulation.
Clubber 10y ago
>I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athleisure and payday loans The "athleisure" market has bilked people out of $35 billion dollars a year using offshore sweatshops to turn $1 into $20 a pop, mainly by amplifying people's insecurities day after day after day through mass advertising.
- nunez 10y ago
  man, this hits home. i just recently got a pullover made by "Nike Golf" at work. It's a nice pullover. It's listed at somewhere between $37.50 and $150 on Amazon. The box it came in? The same box that I used to see stuff delivered to the 99 cent store across the street at my old apartment. It's amazing what athlete endorsements can do for brand value:
- moomin 10y ago
  No one's saying they're saints. Just not quite as life-ruining to their consumers as payday loans. (Which is a really low bar to limbo under.)
- jolux 10y ago
  Large profit margins and predatory loan practices are completely different ethically, though.
  - Clubber 10y ago
    It's more than large profit margins, it's the constant deluge of propaganda every day that gnaws at people's insecurities. I'm too fat, I'm too skinny, I'm not strong enough, I'm not active enough, I'm not healthy enough, I don't exercise enough, I don't hydrate enough, I don't eat right enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not handsome enough, I'm not popular enough, ad nausium. Every day, to an entire population, for generations. There's a saying in business, you don't sell product, you sell emotion. They are selling, "I want to feel better about myself." They can't sell that until they knock people down several notches. That's what it takes to get people to pay $40 for a shirt then can get for $7. Just about everyone alive has grown up with that. Let that roll around in your head a while. I think it's worse in scope and what it does to the population. I've never been screwed by a payday loan service, but I've certainly been subject to that type of advertising for as long as I've been alive, and it's gotten progressively more sophisticated.

by jolux 10y ago

devoply 10y ago

it's a good that a demographic buys. that's the way that ethically bereft corporations see it. i would even guess that this is how zuck sees it. people who buy jay-z buy obama. people with lower income buy payday loans. there is nothing ethical about any of this unless you want to add the ethical dimension. corporations are expected not to. and yet the data is allowing them more and more to target these "opportunities". i wanted to catch some flies over the weekend. i used some soap and vinegar as the vinegar attracts them and the soap breaks the surface tension to drown them. corporations act much the same way. perhaps we need to see them as predators rather than someone looking to solve our problems, much like flies should see me. i don't provide what they want, but they don't see it that way until it's too late. we sell bad food to overweight people. facebook can help with that. we also sell diets to overweight people. facebook can help with that too. either we add an ethical dimension to business or quit criticizing marketers for doing what they are expected to be doing. i would even go as far as to argue that a system based on desire is not a good system. as the case with the flies, we can be led to death through our desires and various drives that have another purpose, but have been subverted to achive different objectives. whether as individuals or as a civilization.

enraged_camel 10y ago
>>it's a good that a demographic buys. Oxygen and carbon monoxide are both gases. One of them is poisonous to humans.
- devoply 10y ago
  Corporations will sell you just enough rope to hang yourself unless the government steps in and tells them not to through regulation. But that's the antithesis of business, neo-liberal economics will argue. Canada still sells asbestos to third world countries for instance.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    Apparently asbestos mining in Canada has ended. Asbestos opponents and those weary of seeing Canada's mesothelioma rate rise celebrated in 2011 when the country's asbestos industry ground to a standstill. Canada's last two remaining active mines, the Jeffrey Mine in Asbestos, Quebec, and the Lac d'amiante du Canada in the nearby town of Thetford Mines, Quebec, shut down because of financial, labor and development issues — the first time in 130 years that the Canadian asbestos production stalled.[1] 1. https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/ https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  Are you suggesting that pay day loans should be illegal or advertisements for them should? If not why not advertise them to the audience that is apparently interested in it?
  - pvg 10y ago
    There's a difference between an interest in yoga pants and an 'interest' in predatory loans or military service for lack of other options.
    - ajmurmann 10y ago
      Yeah I get that it is unfortunate to say the least that people need/want these loans. However, what is the right thing to do about the loans? If they are predatory, maybe they should be illegal. But who am I to tell people what they can and cannot do with their money? That would be rather patronizing. If we assume that people getting these loans are grown adults why shouldn't we allow people offering them to advertise to the people most interested in them? Is it ethically "better" if even wealthy women from the Marina see the ads despite everyone knowing they don't care about pay day loans for purposes other than discussing then on HN? I think it's honestly a really hard ethical question that I don't see a obvious answer to.
      - pvg 10y ago
        If you're an advertising platform, you can choose what sort of products are advertised on it. All of them do. You can, quite reasonably, decline to advertise things that are unethical. For instance, predatory loans. You are choosing not to profit off the misery of others. This is not nearly as complicated as you make it out to be.
        prostoalex 10y ago
        Will the target demographics universally and unequivocally benefit when online access to such loans is cut off? Other choices might include an even more predatory local check-cashing place and a guy named Vinnie who seems to own a lot of baseball bats for someone that never plays baseball.
- dualogy 10y ago
  Not to detract or digress, but oxygen is damaging to cellular life as well, just long term. If nothing else gets you beforehand, with age as all mammals "we caramelize (glycation) & we go rancid" (oxidation). When photosynthesizing microorganisms emerged and oxygenated the planet, it likely wiped out 90% of life as it existed pre-oxygen (not multicellular back then --- which could well predominantly be an adaptation to protect weaker "inner" cells against oxygen, anyway --- the other great adaptation was proto-mitochondria getting an actual massive energy boost from burning oxygen rather than being burned by it, and here we are today!)
pinewurst 10y ago
Which makes Zuck admirably qualified to be our next US President - his "Meet The Proles" tour is now in progress
deegles 10y ago
Facebook: Connecting the world ... to advertisers!
obmelvin 10y ago
yes, most things are goods that people can buy at their own discretion. However, payday loans are predatory and should not be considered in the same category as unhealthy food, expensive clothing, etc.
- devoply 10y ago
  i could argue that addictive foods are similarly predatory. they have long lasting impact on the health of a person the same way that payday loans have on their economic health. predatory is arbitrary, the question is what is the impact of the harm. and can people be expected to control themselves or at least regulate themselves when presented with the option, so as to act in their best interest. for many things in the economy i don't believe this to be the case. yet business gets done and the system at least appears to continue to function. people learn from their mistakes and move on if the damage isn't too great. or they get caught up and stuck and that's a problem that needs regulation.

Clubber 10y ago

>I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athleisure and payday loans The "athleisure" market has bilked people out of $35 billion dollars a year using offshore sweatshops to turn $1 into $20 a pop, mainly by amplifying people's insecurities day after day after day through mass advertising.

nunez 10y ago
man, this hits home. i just recently got a pullover made by "Nike Golf" at work. It's a nice pullover. It's listed at somewhere between $37.50 and $150 on Amazon. The box it came in? The same box that I used to see stuff delivered to the 99 cent store across the street at my old apartment. It's amazing what athlete endorsements can do for brand value:
moomin 10y ago
No one's saying they're saints. Just not quite as life-ruining to their consumers as payday loans. (Which is a really low bar to limbo under.)
jolux 10y ago
Large profit margins and predatory loan practices are completely different ethically, though.
- Clubber 10y ago
  It's more than large profit margins, it's the constant deluge of propaganda every day that gnaws at people's insecurities. I'm too fat, I'm too skinny, I'm not strong enough, I'm not active enough, I'm not healthy enough, I don't exercise enough, I don't hydrate enough, I don't eat right enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not handsome enough, I'm not popular enough, ad nausium. Every day, to an entire population, for generations. There's a saying in business, you don't sell product, you sell emotion. They are selling, "I want to feel better about myself." They can't sell that until they knock people down several notches. That's what it takes to get people to pay $40 for a shirt then can get for $7. Just about everyone alive has grown up with that. Let that roll around in your head a while. I think it's worse in scope and what it does to the population. I've never been screwed by a payday loan service, but I've certainly been subject to that type of advertising for as long as I've been alive, and it's gotten progressively more sophisticated.