6 ms·

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even

by moomin 10y ago

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even analysis or deep learning does anything. People (or programs written by people) execute decisions on the basis of data. It's still the people being unethical. Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interesting that at least one marketer at Facebook seems to believe it does. And that's just one of the many things that manage to be simultaneously offensive and just plain incorrect in what is frankly, a pretty short article.

hammock 10y ago
You ought to continue to read past that. Because you missed his point. He goes on to basically question "ethics" entirely: >What did this tool start spitting out? Every ethnic stereotype you can imagine....People who liked Jay Z were more likely to like Obama – it was one of the statistical truths Facebook couldn’t be seen espousing. I disagreed. Jay Z is a millionaire music tycoon, so what if we associate him with the president? In our current world, there’s a long list of Truths That Cannot Be Stated Publicly, even though there’s plenty of data suggesting their correctness, and this was one of them. African Americans living in postal codes with depressed incomes likely do respond disproportionately to ads for usurious “payday” loans. Hispanics between the ages of 18 and 25 probably do engage with ads singing the charms and advantages of military service. Why should those examples of targeting be viewed as any less ethical than, say, ads selling $100 Lululemon yoga pants targeting thirtysomething women in affluent postal codes like San Francisco’s Marina district?
- jolux 10y ago
  That's not questioning, that's rejecting wholesale without a proper argument as to why. And frankly I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athleisure and payday loans, and it seems to me you'd have to be pretty damn fucking self-deluded to think they're remotely comparable.
  - devoply 10y ago
    it's a good that a demographic buys. that's the way that ethically bereft corporations see it. i would even guess that this is how zuck sees it. people who buy jay-z buy obama. people with lower income buy payday loans. there is nothing ethical about any of this unless you want to add the ethical dimension. corporations are expected not to. and yet the data is allowing them more and more to target these "opportunities". i wanted to catch some flies over the weekend. i used some soap and vinegar as the vinegar attracts them and the soap breaks the surface tension to drown them. corporations act much the same way. perhaps we need to see them as predators rather than someone looking to solve our problems, much like flies should see me. i don't provide what they want, but they don't see it that way until it's too late. we sell bad food to overweight people. facebook can help with that. we also sell diets to overweight people. facebook can help with that too. either we add an ethical dimension to business or quit criticizing marketers for doing what they are expected to be doing. i would even go as far as to argue that a system based on desire is not a good system. as the case with the flies, we can be led to death through our desires and various drives that have another purpose, but have been subverted to achive different objectives. whether as individuals or as a civilization.
    - enraged_camel 10y ago
      >>it's a good that a demographic buys. Oxygen and carbon monoxide are both gases. One of them is poisonous to humans.
      - devoply 10y ago
        Corporations will sell you just enough rope to hang yourself unless the government steps in and tells them not to through regulation. But that's the antithesis of business, neo-liberal economics will argue. Canada still sells asbestos to third world countries for instance.
        TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
        Apparently asbestos mining in Canada has ended. Asbestos opponents and those weary of seeing Canada's mesothelioma rate rise celebrated in 2011 when the country's asbestos industry ground to a standstill. Canada's last two remaining active mines, the Jeffrey Mine in Asbestos, Quebec, and the Lac d'amiante du Canada in the nearby town of Thetford Mines, Quebec, shut down because of financial, labor and development issues — the first time in 130 years that the Canadian asbestos production stalled.[1] 1. https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/ https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/
- acobster 10y ago
  Well to answer his question: because in the examples of African Americas and Hispanics, there's a power structure with its roots in the racist history of American capitalism, and profiting off of that power structure is definitely less ethical than getting an affluent woman to spend some of her disposable income.
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    So selling them the pay day loan is bad or advertising it or advertising it to them?
- moomin 10y ago
  Oh believe me, I caught that bit. And my summary of the entire article stands. To paraphrase what he's saying here: why is selling things to people who can easily afford them "ok" when exploiting the poverty of historically disadvantaged groups and getting them possibly maimed or killed is not ok? The fact that he even thinks this approaches an interesting argument reinforces my point: intellectually and morally bankrupt. The guy isn't smart enough to realise that his unanswerable rhetorical questions have obvious answers.
CalChris 10y ago
Skim thru his book. He definitely has morally bankrupt covered. Also, was he an exec at Facebook?
- vmasto 10y ago
  He was a Product Manager (says right there in the article).
- antongm 10y ago
  Skim? You should read it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
rconti 10y ago
It might be more correct to say "data reveals things that might be politically incorrect to state in public (or advertise based on).
- kfkhalili 10y ago
  He actually says exactly that.
FridgeSeal 10y ago
> Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interesting that at least one marketer at Facebook seems to believe it does. I suspect a large portion of this attitude comes from the fact that the marketers (tasked with enacting campaigns and strategies based on results of data science/machine learning), likely don't understand all of the statistical intricacies and pitfalls around underlying assumptions, and a lot of people already view data science as producing "magic" results (and assume that if it tools them so, it must be true). Of course, this guy is likely morally bankrupt anyways, which doesn't help either.
virtuabhi 10y ago
Of course data can behave unethically. For example, data might show that people of a particular race in a particular neighborhood have high concentration of bad credit scores. Though using this information to approve/deny loan applications might be illegal. And when algorithms are run on large datasets, are closed source, and their downstream effects are difficult to measure, then yes data/algorithms can behave unethically.
- EpicEng 10y ago
  ... Why wouldn't they just use the credit score?
- virtuabhi 10y ago
  Edit: The example of loans-neighborhood relationship is real. See http://www.dictionary.com/browse/redlining http://www.dictionary.com/browse/redlining
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rs86 10y ago
Data is the new supernatural ruling entity that spinned the world for fun and guess what is still interested in it

by moomin 10y ago

hammock 10y ago

You ought to continue to read past that. Because you missed his point. He goes on to basically question "ethics" entirely: >What did this tool start spitting out? Every ethnic stereotype you can imagine....People who liked Jay Z were more likely to like Obama – it was one of the statistical truths Facebook couldn’t be seen espousing. I disagreed. Jay Z is a millionaire music tycoon, so what if we associate him with the president? In our current world, there’s a long list of Truths That Cannot Be Stated Publicly, even though there’s plenty of data suggesting their correctness, and this was one of them. African Americans living in postal codes with depressed incomes likely do respond disproportionately to ads for usurious “payday” loans. Hispanics between the ages of 18 and 25 probably do engage with ads singing the charms and advantages of military service. Why should those examples of targeting be viewed as any less ethical than, say, ads selling $100 Lululemon yoga pants targeting thirtysomething women in affluent postal codes like San Francisco’s Marina district?

jolux 10y ago
That's not questioning, that's rejecting wholesale without a proper argument as to why. And frankly I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athleisure and payday loans, and it seems to me you'd have to be pretty damn fucking self-deluded to think they're remotely comparable.
- devoply 10y ago
  it's a good that a demographic buys. that's the way that ethically bereft corporations see it. i would even guess that this is how zuck sees it. people who buy jay-z buy obama. people with lower income buy payday loans. there is nothing ethical about any of this unless you want to add the ethical dimension. corporations are expected not to. and yet the data is allowing them more and more to target these "opportunities". i wanted to catch some flies over the weekend. i used some soap and vinegar as the vinegar attracts them and the soap breaks the surface tension to drown them. corporations act much the same way. perhaps we need to see them as predators rather than someone looking to solve our problems, much like flies should see me. i don't provide what they want, but they don't see it that way until it's too late. we sell bad food to overweight people. facebook can help with that. we also sell diets to overweight people. facebook can help with that too. either we add an ethical dimension to business or quit criticizing marketers for doing what they are expected to be doing. i would even go as far as to argue that a system based on desire is not a good system. as the case with the flies, we can be led to death through our desires and various drives that have another purpose, but have been subverted to achive different objectives. whether as individuals or as a civilization.
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    >>it's a good that a demographic buys. Oxygen and carbon monoxide are both gases. One of them is poisonous to humans.
    - devoply 10y ago
      Corporations will sell you just enough rope to hang yourself unless the government steps in and tells them not to through regulation. But that's the antithesis of business, neo-liberal economics will argue. Canada still sells asbestos to third world countries for instance.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
        Apparently asbestos mining in Canada has ended. Asbestos opponents and those weary of seeing Canada's mesothelioma rate rise celebrated in 2011 when the country's asbestos industry ground to a standstill. Canada's last two remaining active mines, the Jeffrey Mine in Asbestos, Quebec, and the Lac d'amiante du Canada in the nearby town of Thetford Mines, Quebec, shut down because of financial, labor and development issues — the first time in 130 years that the Canadian asbestos production stalled.[1] 1. https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/ https://www.asbestos.com/mesothelioma/canada/
acobster 10y ago
Well to answer his question: because in the examples of African Americas and Hispanics, there's a power structure with its roots in the racist history of American capitalism, and profiting off of that power structure is definitely less ethical than getting an affluent woman to spend some of her disposable income.
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  So selling them the pay day loan is bad or advertising it or advertising it to them?
moomin 10y ago
Oh believe me, I caught that bit. And my summary of the entire article stands. To paraphrase what he's saying here: why is selling things to people who can easily afford them "ok" when exploiting the poverty of historically disadvantaged groups and getting them possibly maimed or killed is not ok? The fact that he even thinks this approaches an interesting argument reinforces my point: intellectually and morally bankrupt. The guy isn't smart enough to realise that his unanswerable rhetorical questions have obvious answers.

CalChris 10y ago

Skim thru his book. He definitely has morally bankrupt covered. Also, was he an exec at Facebook?

vmasto 10y ago
He was a Product Manager (says right there in the article).
antongm 10y ago
Skim? You should read it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

rconti 10y ago

It might be more correct to say "data reveals things that might be politically incorrect to state in public (or advertise based on).

kfkhalili 10y ago
He actually says exactly that.

FridgeSeal 10y ago

> Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interesting that at least one marketer at Facebook seems to believe it does. I suspect a large portion of this attitude comes from the fact that the marketers (tasked with enacting campaigns and strategies based on results of data science/machine learning), likely don't understand all of the statistical intricacies and pitfalls around underlying assumptions, and a lot of people already view data science as producing "magic" results (and assume that if it tools them so, it must be true). Of course, this guy is likely morally bankrupt anyways, which doesn't help either.

virtuabhi 10y ago

Of course data can behave unethically. For example, data might show that people of a particular race in a particular neighborhood have high concentration of bad credit scores. Though using this information to approve/deny loan applications might be illegal. And when algorithms are run on large datasets, are closed source, and their downstream effects are difficult to measure, then yes data/algorithms can behave unethically.

EpicEng 10y ago
... Why wouldn't they just use the credit score?
virtuabhi 10y ago
Edit: The example of loans-neighborhood relationship is real. See http://www.dictionary.com/browse/redlining http://www.dictionary.com/browse/redlining

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

rs86 10y ago

Data is the new supernatural ruling entity that spinned the world for fun and guess what is still interested in it