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this rarely gets mentioned in these articles but it's extremely important. The Chinese food culture is substantially different than the Western food culture, an

this rarely gets mentioned in these articles but it's extremely important. The Chinese food culture is substantially different than the Western food culture, and I don't just mean the items on the menu. Chinese don't eat raw foods at all, and especially not vegetables, which they correctly (by the standards of Chinatown produce) view as being unsanitary until thoroughly cooked. They have created a market that is efficient by eschewing the standards of sanitation that Western produce markets use. That's not to say that this is bad. Their food culture is fully adapted to it and it doesn't produce epidemics of food-borne illness in their community because they handle and cook food appropriately. The same approach wouldn't work if it was mostly Westerners buying the food though. A taste for raw baby kale salad makes this entire approach to food marketing non-viable.

ithinkinstereo 9y ago
> Chinese don't eat raw foods at all, and especially not vegetables, which they correctly (by the standards of Chinatown produce) view as being unsanitary until thoroughly cooked. That's not strictly true. There are plenty of classical Chinese dishes - many of them family type dishes - that are composed of raw vegetables. Also pickling is pretty big in Chinese cuisine, but I guess that's not "raw" in the technical sense. Lastly, Chinese people love raw seafood - sushi, oysters, etc.
- kkylin 9y ago
  All this is true, but while we() used to shop regularly in Chinatown markets (back when we lived close to a Chinatown, anyway), we would not eat anything raw except for fruits. Any vegetables or meat to be eaten raw or undercooked, we would buy from an "American" market. () Chinese-American family.
- metaphorm 9y ago
  > Lastly, Chinese people love raw seafood - sushi, oysters, etc. Which Chinese people? There are approximately zero sushi restaurants in Manhattan Chinatown. There are a whole bunch of sushi restaurants in adjacent SoHo, which is filled with non-Chinese yuppies. anecdotal: took my Chinese co-worker to The Pokespot takeout for lunch and he immediately turned around and went somewhere else when he saw that the menu contained only raw fish.
  - colmvp 9y ago
    I'd say the comment should be tweaked to Westernized Chinese (for lack of a better term... maybe Cosmopolitan?). My parents refuse to try raw seafood/meat. But having grown up in North America exposed to raw salads, meat, and seafood, I'm comfortable with it.
  - derwiki 9y ago
    China is not Chinatown, and I think your sample size is a bit small considering how many Chinese exist.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      China is not Chinatown Said dozens of times by my Chinese-born girlfriend in SF Chinatown: "I have no idea what this is." "This is weird."
      - mixmastamyk 9y ago
        Born where? I believe west coast Chinatowns were built by Cantonese and separated by 100+ years. See the recent post about american chinese food.
        ithinkinstereo 9y ago
        That's correct. The first influx of Chinese immigrants were mostly from the south. After the CCP took over, immigration from the mainland basically ceased. During the 60s-80s most of the Chinese immigrants that were not from HK were from Taiwan. Immigration from the mainland started picking up after the Cultural Revolution in the late 70s / early 80s through now. "Chinese" food in the US is mostly Cantonese food. Only fairly recently have you seen an uptick of non-canton style food. The latest trend is Sichuan / Chongqing style of cuisine (spicy!). My favorite Chinese regional cuisine is Xinjiang cai (food of the uighurs, China's muslim minority group). Very tasty - lots of bbq meats, delicious noodles, and spicy. Also bonus that its halal/kosher.
        9y ago
vlan0 9y ago
Not even raw fruit?
- metaphorm 9y ago
  many fruits have rinds or peels that are removed before eating. those that aren't, well, they aren't so popular, and they are typically washed and peeled before serving. I've never seen anyone in Chinatown take a bite out of a totally raw, unprocessed apple.
  - Markoff 9y ago
    please don't call ABCs Chinese, apparently one billion Chinese would disagree with your comment, apples are extremely popular, so are mandarins, tomatoes and nuts, all raw in China real Chinese eat lot of raw stuff, if ABCs don't it must be some of their local fetish
    - metaphorm 9y ago
      maybe it was lost on you that the linked article, and this entire discussion, is about the people living in Chinatown?
- Markoff 9y ago
  of course they eat all kinds of raw fruit and vegetables, tomato is pretty much considered equal to apple, you will see people in streets of Beijing holding it and biting it like apple, same goes for cucumber which is especially popular in summer as alternative to ice cream to cool you down speaking from perspective of someone who lived years in China with real Chinese, ignorance of previous poster is unlimited
kbutler 9y ago
> Chinese don't eat raw foods at all Hmm. They always cook their rambutan? That's sad. That said, Thailand has similar market sanitation norms (I almost said "standards", but that gives the wrong impression). They do still have a culture of various raw foods (lahb, nahmtok), and yes, you should probably ask for them "sook" (cooked).
aardvark291 9y ago
Indeed, the linked article doesn't say anything about lack of sanitation, and almost implies the opposite. »Imbruce, who's researched the Chinatown produce economy for over a decade, is the author of From Farm to Canal Street: Chinatown’s Alternative Food Network in the Global Marketplace. In the Journal she distills to Kadet the real reason Chinatown can keep prices low: “Chinatown’s 80-plus produce markets are cheap because they are connected to a web of small farms and wholesalers that operate independently of the network supplying most mainstream supermarkets.” While most of the rest of New York's markets get their produce from the Hunts Point Market in the Bronx, Chinatown sellers work directly with small neighborhood warehouses. Since they're operating in close geographic proximity, they can get fresh produce throughout the day from wholesalers, and therefore don’t need a store with refrigeration or a lot of storage space.«
- metaphorm 9y ago
  they don't strictly need refrigeration because of rapid turnover (most of the inventory sells same day) and because the buyers are knowledgable about what condition the produce really is. that said, if you've ever walked down Mott St. on a hot summer afternoon there will be no doubt in your nose that the produce isn't making the sanitation grade that you will find at Whole Foods.
  - Alex3917 9y ago
    > if you've ever walked down Mott St. on a hot summer afternoon there will be no doubt in your nose that the produce isn't making the sanitation grade that you will find at Whole Foods. Are you sure what you're smelling isn't the fish markets or medicinal herb stores? Produce is produce, it doesn't smell like anything.
    - GBond 9y ago
      fish gut refuge + hot air/sun does not mix well
      - gameshot911 9y ago
sleepingeights 9y ago
I don't buy from our local chinatown which sources some of its vegetables from farmers who grow right off freeways etc where the land is cheap because of its location. On the other hand they also buy from farmers who grow their crops off lands more suitable for farming as well.
weaksauce 9y ago
I have a persian market near me that has produce much cheaper than any store around usually because they don't have the best looking AAA quality produce. It tastes great and you might need to cut a bit more off than normal and a lemon there won't look like the picture perfect lemon from a large grocery but it's significantly cheaper.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  a lemon there won't look like the picture perfect lemon from a large grocery but it's significantly cheaper Also, that's what lemons actually look like.
stcredzero 9y ago
The Chinese food culture is substantially different than the Western food culture, and I don't just mean the items on the menu. Things I've noticed about the particular Chinese food culture of my girlfriend: Ginger goes in Chicken soup. Garlic does not. Broccoli is only cooked until bright green. Black pepper is used, basically never. All vegetables are to be rinsed, even the things in Trader Joe's packages that say "Triple Washed, Ready to Use." Almost no claim on the package should be trusted, ever. Meat is always well cooked. (And there are plenty of ways to make meat very tasty without having it be super-rare.)
- Spellman 9y ago
  Well, unless the meat is particularly fresh. Then you only cook to barely cooked. See steamed chicken where often it will be served with the marrow still red. And it's blasphemy to overcook fish.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    And it's blasphemy to overcook fish. Thanks. I think I just figured another one out!
- contingencies 9y ago
  These are pretty good general rules of thumb. Interestingly the Vietnamese, by contrast, are very much in to rare meats. Broccoli and other vegetables are cooked only slightly because it is considered wasteful of the natural qualities of the food to overcook it (and probably because it wastes fuel also, which is also the reason for everything being cut small before cooking).
  - digitalzombie 9y ago
    > Interestingly the Vietnamese, by contrast, are very much in to rare meats. I blame the French. Indochina happened. The biggest evidence for this is Vietnamese word for beef is Bo. Which is a borrowed French word. http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2010/05/21/featured-topic-french-loan-words-in-vietnam/ http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2010/05/21...
__jal 9y ago
I'd hardly describe the food found in NYC Chinatown markets unsanitary, and never felt any reason not to eat them raw they same way I would from BigCoMart - you wash and inspect. If anything, I'd expect fewer golf balls in my food. http://nypost.com/2017/04/22/chopped-golf-balls-in-hash-browns-prompts-recall/ http://nypost.com/2017/04/22/chopped-golf-balls-in-hash-brow...
contingencies 9y ago
Chinese don't eat raw foods at all, and especially not vegetables... Not true. Things that are definitely commonly consumed raw include all fruits, some roots and tubers, garlic, cucumbers, onion, herbs and leaves, chilli, sugar cane. Perhaps your perspective is skewed by a limited, US-only sample. Food preparation preferences are largely regional in China, anyway.
eiliant 9y ago
Have you ever been to Shanghai? Or any major chinese city? This is such an uninformed comment - you can find fresh salads in the 100s of Wagas around town, in supermarkets, etcetc. And I don't know what you call chinese food culture, maybe the traditional one 100s of years ago, but nowadays raw beef in hotpot restaurants as appetizers is very popular and sushi/sashimi even moreso, even if you go down to t2 cities. This is chinese food culture right? What chinese people like to eat nowadays in 2017, not like 1850 food culture
autokad 9y ago
the article also misses a glaring fact: most vendors in Chinatown are skipping on taxes. ever wonder why you dont pay sales tax when you pay with cash? (if they are even willing to accept anything else)
Markoff 9y ago
you never been to real Chinese restaurant, ordering raw cucumbers or tomorrow as one of the dishes is extremely common, I was always amused to see people wasting money on this in China, since there is pretty much zero preparation besides chopping but price is almost on par with main meat course
op00to 9y ago
> it doesn't produce epidemics of food-borne illness in their community because they handle and cook food appropriately. Do you have a source for this? Food borne illness goes massively unreported because except in infants and the elderly, it generally resolves by itself. I can only imagine that given the challenges immigrant communities have with getting adequate health care in the US, they are even less likely to report food borne illness. I just can't see the link between "Chinese cook their vegetables more" and no epidemics of food borne illness.

ithinkinstereo 9y ago

> Chinese don't eat raw foods at all, and especially not vegetables, which they correctly (by the standards of Chinatown produce) view as being unsanitary until thoroughly cooked. That's not strictly true. There are plenty of classical Chinese dishes - many of them family type dishes - that are composed of raw vegetables. Also pickling is pretty big in Chinese cuisine, but I guess that's not "raw" in the technical sense. Lastly, Chinese people love raw seafood - sushi, oysters, etc.

kkylin 9y ago
All this is true, but while we() used to shop regularly in Chinatown markets (back when we lived close to a Chinatown, anyway), we would not eat anything raw except for fruits. Any vegetables or meat to be eaten raw or undercooked, we would buy from an "American" market. () Chinese-American family.
metaphorm 9y ago
> Lastly, Chinese people love raw seafood - sushi, oysters, etc. Which Chinese people? There are approximately zero sushi restaurants in Manhattan Chinatown. There are a whole bunch of sushi restaurants in adjacent SoHo, which is filled with non-Chinese yuppies. anecdotal: took my Chinese co-worker to The Pokespot takeout for lunch and he immediately turned around and went somewhere else when he saw that the menu contained only raw fish.
- colmvp 9y ago
  I'd say the comment should be tweaked to Westernized Chinese (for lack of a better term... maybe Cosmopolitan?). My parents refuse to try raw seafood/meat. But having grown up in North America exposed to raw salads, meat, and seafood, I'm comfortable with it.
- derwiki 9y ago
  China is not Chinatown, and I think your sample size is a bit small considering how many Chinese exist.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    China is not Chinatown Said dozens of times by my Chinese-born girlfriend in SF Chinatown: "I have no idea what this is." "This is weird."
    - mixmastamyk 9y ago
      Born where? I believe west coast Chinatowns were built by Cantonese and separated by 100+ years. See the recent post about american chinese food.
      - ithinkinstereo 9y ago
        That's correct. The first influx of Chinese immigrants were mostly from the south. After the CCP took over, immigration from the mainland basically ceased. During the 60s-80s most of the Chinese immigrants that were not from HK were from Taiwan. Immigration from the mainland started picking up after the Cultural Revolution in the late 70s / early 80s through now. "Chinese" food in the US is mostly Cantonese food. Only fairly recently have you seen an uptick of non-canton style food. The latest trend is Sichuan / Chongqing style of cuisine (spicy!). My favorite Chinese regional cuisine is Xinjiang cai (food of the uighurs, China's muslim minority group). Very tasty - lots of bbq meats, delicious noodles, and spicy. Also bonus that its halal/kosher.
        9y ago

vlan0 9y ago

Not even raw fruit?

metaphorm 9y ago
many fruits have rinds or peels that are removed before eating. those that aren't, well, they aren't so popular, and they are typically washed and peeled before serving. I've never seen anyone in Chinatown take a bite out of a totally raw, unprocessed apple.
- Markoff 9y ago
  please don't call ABCs Chinese, apparently one billion Chinese would disagree with your comment, apples are extremely popular, so are mandarins, tomatoes and nuts, all raw in China real Chinese eat lot of raw stuff, if ABCs don't it must be some of their local fetish
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    maybe it was lost on you that the linked article, and this entire discussion, is about the people living in Chinatown?
Markoff 9y ago
of course they eat all kinds of raw fruit and vegetables, tomato is pretty much considered equal to apple, you will see people in streets of Beijing holding it and biting it like apple, same goes for cucumber which is especially popular in summer as alternative to ice cream to cool you down speaking from perspective of someone who lived years in China with real Chinese, ignorance of previous poster is unlimited

kbutler 9y ago

> Chinese don't eat raw foods at all Hmm. They always cook their rambutan? That's sad. That said, Thailand has similar market sanitation norms (I almost said "standards", but that gives the wrong impression). They do still have a culture of various raw foods (lahb, nahmtok), and yes, you should probably ask for them "sook" (cooked).

aardvark291 9y ago

Indeed, the linked article doesn't say anything about lack of sanitation, and almost implies the opposite. »Imbruce, who's researched the Chinatown produce economy for over a decade, is the author of From Farm to Canal Street: Chinatown’s Alternative Food Network in the Global Marketplace. In the Journal she distills to Kadet the real reason Chinatown can keep prices low: “Chinatown’s 80-plus produce markets are cheap because they are connected to a web of small farms and wholesalers that operate independently of the network supplying most mainstream supermarkets.” While most of the rest of New York's markets get their produce from the Hunts Point Market in the Bronx, Chinatown sellers work directly with small neighborhood warehouses. Since they're operating in close geographic proximity, they can get fresh produce throughout the day from wholesalers, and therefore don’t need a store with refrigeration or a lot of storage space.«

metaphorm 9y ago
they don't strictly need refrigeration because of rapid turnover (most of the inventory sells same day) and because the buyers are knowledgable about what condition the produce really is. that said, if you've ever walked down Mott St. on a hot summer afternoon there will be no doubt in your nose that the produce isn't making the sanitation grade that you will find at Whole Foods.
- Alex3917 9y ago
  > if you've ever walked down Mott St. on a hot summer afternoon there will be no doubt in your nose that the produce isn't making the sanitation grade that you will find at Whole Foods. Are you sure what you're smelling isn't the fish markets or medicinal herb stores? Produce is produce, it doesn't smell like anything.
  - GBond 9y ago
    fish gut refuge + hot air/sun does not mix well
    - gameshot911 9y ago

sleepingeights 9y ago

I don't buy from our local chinatown which sources some of its vegetables from farmers who grow right off freeways etc where the land is cheap because of its location. On the other hand they also buy from farmers who grow their crops off lands more suitable for farming as well.

weaksauce 9y ago

I have a persian market near me that has produce much cheaper than any store around usually because they don't have the best looking AAA quality produce. It tastes great and you might need to cut a bit more off than normal and a lemon there won't look like the picture perfect lemon from a large grocery but it's significantly cheaper.

stcredzero 9y ago
a lemon there won't look like the picture perfect lemon from a large grocery but it's significantly cheaper Also, that's what lemons actually look like.

stcredzero 9y ago

The Chinese food culture is substantially different than the Western food culture, and I don't just mean the items on the menu. Things I've noticed about the particular Chinese food culture of my girlfriend: Ginger goes in Chicken soup. Garlic does not. Broccoli is only cooked until bright green. Black pepper is used, basically never. All vegetables are to be rinsed, even the things in Trader Joe's packages that say "Triple Washed, Ready to Use." Almost no claim on the package should be trusted, ever. Meat is always well cooked. (And there are plenty of ways to make meat very tasty without having it be super-rare.)

Spellman 9y ago
Well, unless the meat is particularly fresh. Then you only cook to barely cooked. See steamed chicken where often it will be served with the marrow still red. And it's blasphemy to overcook fish.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  And it's blasphemy to overcook fish. Thanks. I think I just figured another one out!
contingencies 9y ago
These are pretty good general rules of thumb. Interestingly the Vietnamese, by contrast, are very much in to rare meats. Broccoli and other vegetables are cooked only slightly because it is considered wasteful of the natural qualities of the food to overcook it (and probably because it wastes fuel also, which is also the reason for everything being cut small before cooking).
- digitalzombie 9y ago
  > Interestingly the Vietnamese, by contrast, are very much in to rare meats. I blame the French. Indochina happened. The biggest evidence for this is Vietnamese word for beef is Bo. Which is a borrowed French word. http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2010/05/21/featured-topic-french-loan-words-in-vietnam/ http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2010/05/21...

__jal 9y ago

I'd hardly describe the food found in NYC Chinatown markets unsanitary, and never felt any reason not to eat them raw they same way I would from BigCoMart - you wash and inspect. If anything, I'd expect fewer golf balls in my food. http://nypost.com/2017/04/22/chopped-golf-balls-in-hash-browns-prompts-recall/ http://nypost.com/2017/04/22/chopped-golf-balls-in-hash-brow...

contingencies 9y ago

Chinese don't eat raw foods at all, and especially not vegetables... Not true. Things that are definitely commonly consumed raw include all fruits, some roots and tubers, garlic, cucumbers, onion, herbs and leaves, chilli, sugar cane. Perhaps your perspective is skewed by a limited, US-only sample. Food preparation preferences are largely regional in China, anyway.

eiliant 9y ago

Have you ever been to Shanghai? Or any major chinese city? This is such an uninformed comment - you can find fresh salads in the 100s of Wagas around town, in supermarkets, etcetc. And I don't know what you call chinese food culture, maybe the traditional one 100s of years ago, but nowadays raw beef in hotpot restaurants as appetizers is very popular and sushi/sashimi even moreso, even if you go down to t2 cities. This is chinese food culture right? What chinese people like to eat nowadays in 2017, not like 1850 food culture

autokad 9y ago

the article also misses a glaring fact: most vendors in Chinatown are skipping on taxes. ever wonder why you dont pay sales tax when you pay with cash? (if they are even willing to accept anything else)

Markoff 9y ago

you never been to real Chinese restaurant, ordering raw cucumbers or tomorrow as one of the dishes is extremely common, I was always amused to see people wasting money on this in China, since there is pretty much zero preparation besides chopping but price is almost on par with main meat course

op00to 9y ago

> it doesn't produce epidemics of food-borne illness in their community because they handle and cook food appropriately. Do you have a source for this? Food borne illness goes massively unreported because except in infants and the elderly, it generally resolves by itself. I can only imagine that given the challenges immigrant communities have with getting adequate health care in the US, they are even less likely to report food borne illness. I just can't see the link between "Chinese cook their vegetables more" and no epidemics of food borne illness.