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As a counterpoint to some of the outrage/hysteria over the new net neutrality policy, check out this interview with the new FCC chairman Ajit Pai: https://thefe

As a counterpoint to some of the outrage/hysteria over the new net neutrality policy, check out this interview with the new FCC chairman Ajit Pai: https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/26/fcc-chairman-ajit-pai-speaks-net-neutrality-privacy-rickrolling/ https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/26/fcc-chairman-ajit-pai-s... He makes some really good points and generally comes across as well-informed and well-intentioned. In this climate of crazy media hype it's good to keep an open mind and listen to the actual people working on policy.

epistasis 9y ago
That is kind of BS. Let's contrast what Pai says: >Net neutrality, if it means a free and open internet, is something that everybody agrees upon, Meanwhile, in the Ars article, we have a sponsoring Senator who hates Obamacare saying: >In the announcement, Cruz repeated his charge that net neutrality is "Obamacare for the Internet." So not sure what you're trying to do other than misinform us.
- bkeroack 9y ago
  I'm not sure it's inaccurate to describe Title II regulation as heavy-handed and unnecessary when the most rapid and beneficial growth of the Internet occurred in the 90s when there was little/no regulation.
  - forgotmysn 9y ago
    its inaccurate.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    But we're not in the 90s anymore. And large ISPs have demonstrated their willingness to screw their customers to make more profit.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    The last mile infrastructure in the 90s was heavily regulated, and in fact it was those increases in regulation that had a huge part in democratizing the Internet. Up until the mid 80s, telcos would only allow devices that they had approved to be connected to their networks. That's why you had acoustic coupler modems until then. The device that made an actual, electrical connection to the phone company's network had to be one of their approved phones. They maxed out at 1200 baud (most of the time much lower ~100baud). Then with the breakup of the bells, and subsequent regulation forcing them to open their networks and allow unapproved devices as long as they didn't have a demonstrated adverse effect on the network. So yeah, the FCC wasn't regulating AOL in the 90s, they were regulating the last mile: the Bells, GTE, etc. That's where the value in government regulation is, and that's where we want it now as well. My ideal situation, IMHO, would be nationalized last mile, with a host of choices of companies handling the peering from the local office to the internet. You then pay the peering company, and they pay rent to the gov for the last mile. By reducing the barrier to entry (by making it so that any company can easily attach to last mile fiber) you increase competition. That's unlikely to in the current political climate however (to say the least).
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    My puppy grew at a great rate in the first year of her life but her growth has since slowed and now she hardly seems to grow at all. I blame excess regulation! There were three basic reasons for the super-fast growth of internet in the 90s, which I remember quite well as I was making a good living selling computers and networking services. 1. It got way easier to use. When I first got onto the internet it was (almost) all text-based and unix-like, and conceptually difficult for many people to get to grips with, until someone invented a thing called a 'web browser' that regular people could figure out more easily. 2. No taxes on internet business, which had nothing to do with net neutrality but led to a stampede of people looking to make a quick buck and keep more of it than they would in other lines of business. 3. there was huge market potential because lots of people in developed countries had enough disposable income to own a computer, and modems were relatively affordable. Lots of people were doing peer-to-peer networking or running bulletin boards. If you wanted to start an internet company int eh 1990s all you needed was enough capital to rent a T1 line and a buy a or lease some network switching equipment (which was also becoming suddenly affordable with the growth of ethernet), and people would use your service because there weren't that many services out there. I wrote a book for consumers on how to use the exciting new world of the internet back in 1995. Sadly it's long out of print but you can buy my copy for a mere $1000 and educate yourself on what things were actually like >20 years ago instead of your ideological imaginings.
shmerl 9y ago
This interview is a smokescreen to divert attention from real NN issues. What about interconnection problems, caps and zero rating and the rest of crooked stuff that incumbent ISPs are doing to stifle competition and keep prices high?
djsumdog 9y ago
I don't know if he's just misinformed or if he's being intentionally deceptive. He talks about the "light touch" framework of the Bill Clinton era, which saw telecos profit immensely and never feed any money back into their system. I've know Comcast line who, back in the early 2000s, would tell me they'd take parts to their shop where people would resolder and reconstruct equipment that no one in the world manufactured anymore instead of just upgrading the lines. Comcast sued the Electric Power Board in TN a few years later to keep them from offering Fibre to the home; a service that provided amazing speed at about the exact same cost. He brings up AOL CDs versus Gigabit fibre, not talking about all the companies that are keeping that from happening. There is still a bunch of dark fibre that hasn't been used. Telecos are still charging insane amounts for mobile bandwidth that's nowhere near saturated. None of this stuff even touches network neutrality, which is simply saying "You pay for x quality of service and you get x quality of service, to everyone. We don't add a faster pipe just for Google. We don't throttle Netflix and give priority to YouTube. We won't throttle VoIP so you buy our VoIP service instead. Equal access, to the best of ability and equipment." Even if he says Title II isn't the right framework, why gut it until it's replaced. If you say "we'll get rid of it and replace it," more likely than not they'll just git rid of it and telecos will do the same bullshit they've always done and run with it. I think he's in the pocket of big teleco and is weaselling around giving them more power.
- bkeroack 9y ago
  > He talks about the "light touch" framework of the Bill Clinton era, which saw telecos profit immensely and never feed any money back into their system. Even in the 1990s it was obvious that the copper network was obsolete and any additional money put into it would be a wasted investment. > Comcast sued the Electric Power Board in TN a few years later to keep them from offering Fibre to the home Chairman Pai specifically speaks about FCC initiatives to increase competition including opening up access to utility poles. It's a difficult issue because many utility poles/corridors are locally or municipally owned and the FCC has no jurisdiction there. > Even if he says Title II isn't the right framework, why gut it until it's replaced. The point is that it doesn't need to be replaced. It's a heavy-handed and unnecessary imposition of federal regulation on a market that needs to be as free and open as possible due to the speed of innovation in the tech space.
s73ver 9y ago
At the end of the day, they want to make it so that my ISP can charge me more based on what sites I want to go to, and charge the providers of those sites more to reach me. I don't care what the rationale is, I don't want it.
MrFantastic 9y ago
All the examples of small ISPs not spending on infrastructure were small rural areas where the ISPs had a monopoly. Why would they invest in improvements when they have no competition? It's a total spin job.
jonomw 9y ago
I actively welcome and even seek out conversations in opposition to net neutrality. I do this because, to me, an echo chamber becomes claustrophobic extremely quickly. But, despite all this searching, I have yet to find a meaningful argument in opposition. They are either vague or filled with misassumptions. I have yet to find someone (with a correct understanding of the concept) to argue that it actually helps consumers. Their argument always stems from the fear of over-regulation or a historical lack of net neutrality regulation that still allowed the internet to flourish (which is a nonsensical argument). They never challenge the technical rules themselves. This interview (along with almost anything else coming from Pai) falls under this meaningless argument in opposition.
mikeash 9y ago
"At the end of the day it’s going to settle, I hope, where the consumer is the one who is paying a lower price for the content that he or she wants." Oh goodie, I can't wait to pay extra for "professional-grade internet" because I want to access things like GitHub, and not just Facebook. I'm not up for listening to a 50 minute interview with the guy, but if that quote is representative, he doesn't sound remotely well-intentioned.

epistasis 9y ago

That is kind of BS. Let's contrast what Pai says: >Net neutrality, if it means a free and open internet, is something that everybody agrees upon, Meanwhile, in the Ars article, we have a sponsoring Senator who hates Obamacare saying: >In the announcement, Cruz repeated his charge that net neutrality is "Obamacare for the Internet." So not sure what you're trying to do other than misinform us.

bkeroack 9y ago
I'm not sure it's inaccurate to describe Title II regulation as heavy-handed and unnecessary when the most rapid and beneficial growth of the Internet occurred in the 90s when there was little/no regulation.
- forgotmysn 9y ago
  its inaccurate.
- s73ver 9y ago
  But we're not in the 90s anymore. And large ISPs have demonstrated their willingness to screw their customers to make more profit.
- monocasa 9y ago
  The last mile infrastructure in the 90s was heavily regulated, and in fact it was those increases in regulation that had a huge part in democratizing the Internet. Up until the mid 80s, telcos would only allow devices that they had approved to be connected to their networks. That's why you had acoustic coupler modems until then. The device that made an actual, electrical connection to the phone company's network had to be one of their approved phones. They maxed out at 1200 baud (most of the time much lower ~100baud). Then with the breakup of the bells, and subsequent regulation forcing them to open their networks and allow unapproved devices as long as they didn't have a demonstrated adverse effect on the network. So yeah, the FCC wasn't regulating AOL in the 90s, they were regulating the last mile: the Bells, GTE, etc. That's where the value in government regulation is, and that's where we want it now as well. My ideal situation, IMHO, would be nationalized last mile, with a host of choices of companies handling the peering from the local office to the internet. You then pay the peering company, and they pay rent to the gov for the last mile. By reducing the barrier to entry (by making it so that any company can easily attach to last mile fiber) you increase competition. That's unlikely to in the current political climate however (to say the least).
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  My puppy grew at a great rate in the first year of her life but her growth has since slowed and now she hardly seems to grow at all. I blame excess regulation! There were three basic reasons for the super-fast growth of internet in the 90s, which I remember quite well as I was making a good living selling computers and networking services. 1. It got way easier to use. When I first got onto the internet it was (almost) all text-based and unix-like, and conceptually difficult for many people to get to grips with, until someone invented a thing called a 'web browser' that regular people could figure out more easily. 2. No taxes on internet business, which had nothing to do with net neutrality but led to a stampede of people looking to make a quick buck and keep more of it than they would in other lines of business. 3. there was huge market potential because lots of people in developed countries had enough disposable income to own a computer, and modems were relatively affordable. Lots of people were doing peer-to-peer networking or running bulletin boards. If you wanted to start an internet company int eh 1990s all you needed was enough capital to rent a T1 line and a buy a or lease some network switching equipment (which was also becoming suddenly affordable with the growth of ethernet), and people would use your service because there weren't that many services out there. I wrote a book for consumers on how to use the exciting new world of the internet back in 1995. Sadly it's long out of print but you can buy my copy for a mere $1000 and educate yourself on what things were actually like >20 years ago instead of your ideological imaginings.

shmerl 9y ago

This interview is a smokescreen to divert attention from real NN issues. What about interconnection problems, caps and zero rating and the rest of crooked stuff that incumbent ISPs are doing to stifle competition and keep prices high?

djsumdog 9y ago

I don't know if he's just misinformed or if he's being intentionally deceptive. He talks about the "light touch" framework of the Bill Clinton era, which saw telecos profit immensely and never feed any money back into their system. I've know Comcast line who, back in the early 2000s, would tell me they'd take parts to their shop where people would resolder and reconstruct equipment that no one in the world manufactured anymore instead of just upgrading the lines. Comcast sued the Electric Power Board in TN a few years later to keep them from offering Fibre to the home; a service that provided amazing speed at about the exact same cost. He brings up AOL CDs versus Gigabit fibre, not talking about all the companies that are keeping that from happening. There is still a bunch of dark fibre that hasn't been used. Telecos are still charging insane amounts for mobile bandwidth that's nowhere near saturated. None of this stuff even touches network neutrality, which is simply saying "You pay for x quality of service and you get x quality of service, to everyone. We don't add a faster pipe just for Google. We don't throttle Netflix and give priority to YouTube. We won't throttle VoIP so you buy our VoIP service instead. Equal access, to the best of ability and equipment." Even if he says Title II isn't the right framework, why gut it until it's replaced. If you say "we'll get rid of it and replace it," more likely than not they'll just git rid of it and telecos will do the same bullshit they've always done and run with it. I think he's in the pocket of big teleco and is weaselling around giving them more power.

bkeroack 9y ago
> He talks about the "light touch" framework of the Bill Clinton era, which saw telecos profit immensely and never feed any money back into their system. Even in the 1990s it was obvious that the copper network was obsolete and any additional money put into it would be a wasted investment. > Comcast sued the Electric Power Board in TN a few years later to keep them from offering Fibre to the home Chairman Pai specifically speaks about FCC initiatives to increase competition including opening up access to utility poles. It's a difficult issue because many utility poles/corridors are locally or municipally owned and the FCC has no jurisdiction there. > Even if he says Title II isn't the right framework, why gut it until it's replaced. The point is that it doesn't need to be replaced. It's a heavy-handed and unnecessary imposition of federal regulation on a market that needs to be as free and open as possible due to the speed of innovation in the tech space.

s73ver 9y ago

At the end of the day, they want to make it so that my ISP can charge me more based on what sites I want to go to, and charge the providers of those sites more to reach me. I don't care what the rationale is, I don't want it.

MrFantastic 9y ago

All the examples of small ISPs not spending on infrastructure were small rural areas where the ISPs had a monopoly. Why would they invest in improvements when they have no competition? It's a total spin job.

jonomw 9y ago

I actively welcome and even seek out conversations in opposition to net neutrality. I do this because, to me, an echo chamber becomes claustrophobic extremely quickly. But, despite all this searching, I have yet to find a meaningful argument in opposition. They are either vague or filled with misassumptions. I have yet to find someone (with a correct understanding of the concept) to argue that it actually helps consumers. Their argument always stems from the fear of over-regulation or a historical lack of net neutrality regulation that still allowed the internet to flourish (which is a nonsensical argument). They never challenge the technical rules themselves. This interview (along with almost anything else coming from Pai) falls under this meaningless argument in opposition.

mikeash 9y ago

"At the end of the day it’s going to settle, I hope, where the consumer is the one who is paying a lower price for the content that he or she wants." Oh goodie, I can't wait to pay extra for "professional-grade internet" because I want to access things like GitHub, and not just Facebook. I'm not up for listening to a 50 minute interview with the guy, but if that quote is representative, he doesn't sound remotely well-intentioned.