5 ms·

As somebody that worked for a competitor and knows a lot about both of these companies, I can't say for certain what company is going to "win" local services bu

by birken 9y ago

As somebody that worked for a competitor and knows a lot about both of these companies, I can't say for certain what company is going to "win" local services but I can promise you both of these companies will lose (or I guess you could say Angie's List has now already lost). Angie's List went from a membership based review service and tried to unsuccessfully turn it into a marketplace which never worked. In the process they didn't invest in their most valuable asset which was high quality reviews of service pros and a lot of consumer trust. Maybe they are still the best right now for reviews, but that is going to change very soon and this acquisition will just accelerate that. HomeAdvisor is just a sales and marketing company (which has been around since 1999 as its old name, ServiceMagic). They aren't a technology company. They have huge teams of sales people calling pros and selling them on buying consumer leads. Consumers fill in their information for a job and their system just matches them with the pre-sold leads from their sales team. The experience is poor from the consumer side (you often get matched with terrible pros who aren't interested in your job) and is even worse from the pro side (they are paying to be matched for a job they don't want). Pros hate it, they churn at huge rates, which is why HA needs a big sales team. It's a business and they make money but it isn't the type of business that can grow very big. I'm not even sure why this transaction is interesting. Angie's List has been trying to sell themselves for a long time and has gotten to the point where their stock dropped enough that this deal today is "good" that was bad a year ago. HomeAdvisor has been around for 18 years and will go the way of the Yellow Pages in 3-5 years. Just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

nodesocket 9y ago
I have some of the same sentiment and concerns (my previous comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14242737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14242737), mainly around their lack of real technology, differentiated product, and questionable financials. Appreciate your insider knowledge (since you were the original CTO of Thumbtack).
- jeremyt 9y ago
  Not to take any credit away from Birken, but he was the 2nd CTO.
Endy 9y ago
I'm actually going to disagree on the ServiceMagic comment that the contractor doesn't care. I worked for a local contractor for several years, and we had to care, if anything, more, about those orders. Those jobs were the ones most likely to file with the BBB if something went wrong. Plus, enough bad reviews and they actually used to hide low-ranked companies.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  BBB is also going the way of the yellow pages.
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    Yea--I think they used to be good, but now I'm not sure what they do. They have some flaky companies on that site with glowing ratings? All these companies started out with the seemingly right mission, and got our attention; they then get too cute, clever, big, or listen to that monetize speech too many times form the clever Harvard MBA. All I want is a list of fair companies--period. I don't need a detailed rating system. You're on the list,or off. I know if you take on it (all business at once) all at once, it is complicated. I'm thinking about a small list of fair companies, something that can grow. Maybe a 501C3? Just a list of ethical/fair business, and people with ethics. Yea--that list will be small. I want to name my insurance company right now, but it probally wouldn't be the time. They spend very little on advertisements, while keeping their rates fair. I might put up a simple website called "The List". Start off very small, and just put up business/people in my area that I personally know are fair/ethical. Promise to never sell out. Ask for donations if it got big, or I needed to hire people. Maybe it could be done with the right data, ip tracers, and staff who can sniff out the fakers.
  - Applejinx 9y ago
    Which is good: maybe there was a time when they were legitimate, but in the current day it appears they are not. In fact I would consider a 'we bought a AAA rating from Better Business Bureau, look!' as a huge red flag.
Naritai 9y ago
Is there someone who _is_ going to win?
- GBond 9y ago
  My money is on Amazon Home & Business Services. Although essentially they have the same referral network model, people trust AMZN's review platform.
diyseguy 9y ago
Have to agree with this assessment, just recently tried both of those services in the hunt for a plumber. Everyone I called from HomeAdvisor didn't return my calls or else called to tell me they weren't actually plumbers. Angie's List was a laughable disappointment with only one search result for my entire zip code and a testament to how the pay-walled garden approach just doesn't work. I finally resorted to asking around in my neighborhood and found a good plumber who was not listed on Google maps or any other online source. Reasoning was obvious: one bad review and your business is shot down forever, the best thing to do is to stay off the radar.
- noxToken 9y ago
  I have found that this is one of the most redeeming qualities of Next Door. Among the people selling "gently used" crap that no one would even take for free, the NIMBY crowd, the easy racism under the guise of neighborhood watch, the MLM moms, and the "THINK OF THE CHILDEN" crowd, Next Door has been spot on for recommendations. There are small business owners who make posts every two weeks are so about their super amazing lawn care business providing 10x the quality of TruGreen, but if you ask for recommendations, people flock in droves on both sides. Users give glowing praises for good experiences, and they will absolutely crucify a business for bad experiences. Sometimes you have to tease out details, but it's way better than a context-free review post to Google or Yelp. It's very common for a review on a website to have a business with a 4 star rating and a couple negative reviews. The negative reviews will only say something like, "Terrible experience. I will never user ${business} again!" Thanks buddy! You've given me 0 reasons to avoid this place. Next Door allows you to engage other locals on why the experience was poor. I just hope that Next Door doesn't try to pivot and capitalize on this. The system in place is perfect for recommendations, and I would hate for them to create some weird Yelp-esque review system within the app. Edit: This isn't confined to Next Door. Any forum where you can engage neighbors or locals with conversation will be better than a review site. People rarely go into enough details on why an experience was positive or negative. An HVAC company can refill refrigerant for a low price, but their duct work can be extremely pricey and sub-par. Reviews probably will not capture that type of information without asking what the user had done, how much it cost, promptness, time to complete the work, etc. Added these interview-style questions on a review site probably won't help, because will likely not submit a review where all of these are required fields.
zippergz 9y ago
Angie's List used to be awesome. When we bought our current house, we needed an array of professionals for various services, and we hired all of them via Angie's List reviews. Every single one was great. We have found that having a large number of relevant positive reviews on Angie's List to be an extremely strong indicator that the pro will do good work. However, over the past few years, it really seems like it has stagnated, and it's clear they've changed their focus. It's harder to find people who have many recent reviews, and they're always trying to push "coupons" in your face. These days more often than not, I get recommendations from our neighborhood Facebook group (sometime Nextdoor as well, but Facebook is much more active here). The track record isn't quite as good as Angie's List was in the glory days, but it's a lot better than Yelp or just randomly searching. Hiring service pros is so stressful, and such a minefield. So many of them are flakes or terrible at what they do. It seems like it should be a no brainer to have a service that reliably connects you with people who will do awesome work on your home. But I guess it's too hard to monetize that...
- jrs235 9y ago
  >It seems like it should be a no brainer to have a service that reliably connects you with people who will do awesome work on your home. But I guess it's too hard to monetize that... It is difficult to monetize when the end customers care first and foremost about cost/price and not quality. Low volume, high price, quality work doesn't need or require the lead generation [volume] that these sites offer home pros. Word of mouth is sufficient, and free.

by birken 9y ago

nodesocket 9y ago

I have some of the same sentiment and concerns (my previous comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14242737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14242737), mainly around their lack of real technology, differentiated product, and questionable financials. Appreciate your insider knowledge (since you were the original CTO of Thumbtack).

jeremyt 9y ago
Not to take any credit away from Birken, but he was the 2nd CTO.

Endy 9y ago

I'm actually going to disagree on the ServiceMagic comment that the contractor doesn't care. I worked for a local contractor for several years, and we had to care, if anything, more, about those orders. Those jobs were the ones most likely to file with the BBB if something went wrong. Plus, enough bad reviews and they actually used to hide low-ranked companies.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
BBB is also going the way of the yellow pages.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  Yea--I think they used to be good, but now I'm not sure what they do. They have some flaky companies on that site with glowing ratings? All these companies started out with the seemingly right mission, and got our attention; they then get too cute, clever, big, or listen to that monetize speech too many times form the clever Harvard MBA. All I want is a list of fair companies--period. I don't need a detailed rating system. You're on the list,or off. I know if you take on it (all business at once) all at once, it is complicated. I'm thinking about a small list of fair companies, something that can grow. Maybe a 501C3? Just a list of ethical/fair business, and people with ethics. Yea--that list will be small. I want to name my insurance company right now, but it probally wouldn't be the time. They spend very little on advertisements, while keeping their rates fair. I might put up a simple website called "The List". Start off very small, and just put up business/people in my area that I personally know are fair/ethical. Promise to never sell out. Ask for donations if it got big, or I needed to hire people. Maybe it could be done with the right data, ip tracers, and staff who can sniff out the fakers.
- Applejinx 9y ago
  Which is good: maybe there was a time when they were legitimate, but in the current day it appears they are not. In fact I would consider a 'we bought a AAA rating from Better Business Bureau, look!' as a huge red flag.

Naritai 9y ago

Is there someone who _is_ going to win?

GBond 9y ago
My money is on Amazon Home & Business Services. Although essentially they have the same referral network model, people trust AMZN's review platform.

diyseguy 9y ago

Have to agree with this assessment, just recently tried both of those services in the hunt for a plumber. Everyone I called from HomeAdvisor didn't return my calls or else called to tell me they weren't actually plumbers. Angie's List was a laughable disappointment with only one search result for my entire zip code and a testament to how the pay-walled garden approach just doesn't work. I finally resorted to asking around in my neighborhood and found a good plumber who was not listed on Google maps or any other online source. Reasoning was obvious: one bad review and your business is shot down forever, the best thing to do is to stay off the radar.

noxToken 9y ago
I have found that this is one of the most redeeming qualities of Next Door. Among the people selling "gently used" crap that no one would even take for free, the NIMBY crowd, the easy racism under the guise of neighborhood watch, the MLM moms, and the "THINK OF THE CHILDEN" crowd, Next Door has been spot on for recommendations. There are small business owners who make posts every two weeks are so about their super amazing lawn care business providing 10x the quality of TruGreen, but if you ask for recommendations, people flock in droves on both sides. Users give glowing praises for good experiences, and they will absolutely crucify a business for bad experiences. Sometimes you have to tease out details, but it's way better than a context-free review post to Google or Yelp. It's very common for a review on a website to have a business with a 4 star rating and a couple negative reviews. The negative reviews will only say something like, "Terrible experience. I will never user ${business} again!" Thanks buddy! You've given me 0 reasons to avoid this place. Next Door allows you to engage other locals on why the experience was poor. I just hope that Next Door doesn't try to pivot and capitalize on this. The system in place is perfect for recommendations, and I would hate for them to create some weird Yelp-esque review system within the app. Edit: This isn't confined to Next Door. Any forum where you can engage neighbors or locals with conversation will be better than a review site. People rarely go into enough details on why an experience was positive or negative. An HVAC company can refill refrigerant for a low price, but their duct work can be extremely pricey and sub-par. Reviews probably will not capture that type of information without asking what the user had done, how much it cost, promptness, time to complete the work, etc. Added these interview-style questions on a review site probably won't help, because will likely not submit a review where all of these are required fields.

zippergz 9y ago

Angie's List used to be awesome. When we bought our current house, we needed an array of professionals for various services, and we hired all of them via Angie's List reviews. Every single one was great. We have found that having a large number of relevant positive reviews on Angie's List to be an extremely strong indicator that the pro will do good work. However, over the past few years, it really seems like it has stagnated, and it's clear they've changed their focus. It's harder to find people who have many recent reviews, and they're always trying to push "coupons" in your face. These days more often than not, I get recommendations from our neighborhood Facebook group (sometime Nextdoor as well, but Facebook is much more active here). The track record isn't quite as good as Angie's List was in the glory days, but it's a lot better than Yelp or just randomly searching. Hiring service pros is so stressful, and such a minefield. So many of them are flakes or terrible at what they do. It seems like it should be a no brainer to have a service that reliably connects you with people who will do awesome work on your home. But I guess it's too hard to monetize that...

jrs235 9y ago
>It seems like it should be a no brainer to have a service that reliably connects you with people who will do awesome work on your home. But I guess it's too hard to monetize that... It is difficult to monetize when the end customers care first and foremost about cost/price and not quality. Low volume, high price, quality work doesn't need or require the lead generation [volume] that these sites offer home pros. Word of mouth is sufficient, and free.