5 ms·

Yeah, basically the first of Intel or AMD to remove all unremovable closed source magic that has root access to your entire system, could become the dominant pl

Yeah, basically the first of Intel or AMD to remove all unremovable closed source magic that has root access to your entire system, could become the dominant player for years.

rjbwork 9y ago
Does that include sub-x86/x64-level micro-code on the chips themselves?
boyhowdy 9y ago
why though? in my experience, people don't really care about that, especially big entities buying in bulk. just give me what's fastest per dollar.
- allemagne 9y ago
  It could mean much tighter integration with open source kernels (Linux, BSDs) and the software that runs on them. The processor could benefit from crowdsourcing development to some extent. Also, in countries that aren't America (and for many entities in America) there could be huge value assigned to knowing with a higher confidence that your vendor isn't handing over a backdoor to three-letter agencies Finally, FLOSS enthusiasts will go crazy for it, which might not be a huge boost to AMD/Intel but is at least something. It may be an indirect way to get more talented and idealistic individuals going to AMD versus Intel. I don't know much about the subject, so these are all my guesses as to the biggest advantages. Who knows if they outweigh the perceived disadvantages from their perspective.
  - johncolanduoni 9y ago
    Why would dropping ME/PSP provide tighter integration with open source kernels or software? AMD or Intel processors also definitely aren't good candidates for crowdsourcing. Their R&D probably spends more on coffee than the largest crowdsourced projects raised.
    - allemagne 9y ago
      I mean, yeah, you've caught me for sure. I had to look up what ME/PSP are -- I'm only familiar with processor architecture at a high level so I can only extrapolate from what the advantages of open source have been for me in my experience. That includes the option for developers to improve the limitations of a platform they're building on top of instead of working around them. My thinking was that the people who would want to do that when it comes to an open processor would be kernel developers.
    - turblety 9y ago
      I wonder if allowing other people to contribute to open sourced firmware could lead to different features that could help kernels like Linux. At the minute the only features we can have in the firmware of Intel and AMD chips are what features they give us. However maybe the open source community could get more ideas floating around than just Intel and AMD. Maybe some better than Secure Boot and better/safer remote control features that work directly with the kernels? However your point is good about the R&D, and I bet Intel/AMD spend a LOT of money/resource on those backdoors. But the open source world has done a lot in the past. Linux is a massive open source project and arguably very successful an innovative.
- tawayway 9y ago
  Big entities buying in bulk are part of the demand for the backdoors.
- turblety 9y ago
  Yeah you'd be surprised though, more and more people do care about this stuff. The Snowden and Wikileaks leaks are working, and are educating more and more people to these issues. But I do get your point, at this stage it's still a smaller percentage of people who care vs those who don't. But if they capture this market early, couldn't they secure their business for the next X years?
ajdlinux 9y ago
It's one of the selling points of IBM's OpenPOWER initiative - fully open source firmware (including an open source BMC). Certain types of customers are very interested in auditability of their entire stack for security purposes... (disclaimer: I work for IBM)
- turblety 9y ago
  Yeah I'm in. Just let me buy the darn thing :P I was so excited for the Talos Secure Workstation but then it was underfunded on it's campaign. I think I saw some OpenPOWER machines on IBM's website, but all the distributors have stopped selling them. Seems impossible to get hold of an OpenPOWER motherboard :( But yeah as soon as I can buy one I'm getting one to try it out. Mind you does Linux even compile on it yet?
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    I'm running Linux on a POWER8 server right now - Linux has compiled on powerpc machines since some point in the 90s, and IBM now treats Linux as a first-class citizen - for new chips we have Linux running under simulation well before we manufacture our silicon. As of POWER8, we now support running Linux bare-metal, and we sell machines with Linux bare-metal, Linux as a guest under PowerVM (our proprietary hypervisor) and Linux as a guest under PowerKVM (which as you can probably guess, is just a distribution to ship an open source KVM/libvirt hypervisor). https://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/ https://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/ No BSD support as yet ;)
    - turblety 9y ago
      That sounds awesome!! Where do you buy them? When I click Buy Now on IBM it just takes me to a contact form :( Do you know any shop that sells them retail? Edit: Ahh okay I see. The higher end ones need you to call IBM, but I think you can just buy the 6k one.

Yeah, basically the first of Intel or AMD to remove all unremovable closed source magic that has root access to your entire system, could become the dominant player for years.

rjbwork 9y ago

Does that include sub-x86/x64-level micro-code on the chips themselves?

boyhowdy 9y ago

why though? in my experience, people don't really care about that, especially big entities buying in bulk. just give me what's fastest per dollar.

allemagne 9y ago
It could mean much tighter integration with open source kernels (Linux, BSDs) and the software that runs on them. The processor could benefit from crowdsourcing development to some extent. Also, in countries that aren't America (and for many entities in America) there could be huge value assigned to knowing with a higher confidence that your vendor isn't handing over a backdoor to three-letter agencies Finally, FLOSS enthusiasts will go crazy for it, which might not be a huge boost to AMD/Intel but is at least something. It may be an indirect way to get more talented and idealistic individuals going to AMD versus Intel. I don't know much about the subject, so these are all my guesses as to the biggest advantages. Who knows if they outweigh the perceived disadvantages from their perspective.
- johncolanduoni 9y ago
  Why would dropping ME/PSP provide tighter integration with open source kernels or software? AMD or Intel processors also definitely aren't good candidates for crowdsourcing. Their R&D probably spends more on coffee than the largest crowdsourced projects raised.
  - allemagne 9y ago
    I mean, yeah, you've caught me for sure. I had to look up what ME/PSP are -- I'm only familiar with processor architecture at a high level so I can only extrapolate from what the advantages of open source have been for me in my experience. That includes the option for developers to improve the limitations of a platform they're building on top of instead of working around them. My thinking was that the people who would want to do that when it comes to an open processor would be kernel developers.
  - turblety 9y ago
    I wonder if allowing other people to contribute to open sourced firmware could lead to different features that could help kernels like Linux. At the minute the only features we can have in the firmware of Intel and AMD chips are what features they give us. However maybe the open source community could get more ideas floating around than just Intel and AMD. Maybe some better than Secure Boot and better/safer remote control features that work directly with the kernels? However your point is good about the R&D, and I bet Intel/AMD spend a LOT of money/resource on those backdoors. But the open source world has done a lot in the past. Linux is a massive open source project and arguably very successful an innovative.
tawayway 9y ago
Big entities buying in bulk are part of the demand for the backdoors.
turblety 9y ago
Yeah you'd be surprised though, more and more people do care about this stuff. The Snowden and Wikileaks leaks are working, and are educating more and more people to these issues. But I do get your point, at this stage it's still a smaller percentage of people who care vs those who don't. But if they capture this market early, couldn't they secure their business for the next X years?

ajdlinux 9y ago

It's one of the selling points of IBM's OpenPOWER initiative - fully open source firmware (including an open source BMC). Certain types of customers are very interested in auditability of their entire stack for security purposes... (disclaimer: I work for IBM)

turblety 9y ago
Yeah I'm in. Just let me buy the darn thing :P I was so excited for the Talos Secure Workstation but then it was underfunded on it's campaign. I think I saw some OpenPOWER machines on IBM's website, but all the distributors have stopped selling them. Seems impossible to get hold of an OpenPOWER motherboard :( But yeah as soon as I can buy one I'm getting one to try it out. Mind you does Linux even compile on it yet?
- ajdlinux 9y ago
  I'm running Linux on a POWER8 server right now - Linux has compiled on powerpc machines since some point in the 90s, and IBM now treats Linux as a first-class citizen - for new chips we have Linux running under simulation well before we manufacture our silicon. As of POWER8, we now support running Linux bare-metal, and we sell machines with Linux bare-metal, Linux as a guest under PowerVM (our proprietary hypervisor) and Linux as a guest under PowerKVM (which as you can probably guess, is just a distribution to ship an open source KVM/libvirt hypervisor). https://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/ https://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/ No BSD support as yet ;)
  - turblety 9y ago
    That sounds awesome!! Where do you buy them? When I click Buy Now on IBM it just takes me to a contact form :( Do you know any shop that sells them retail? Edit: Ahh okay I see. The higher end ones need you to call IBM, but I think you can just buy the 6k one.