5 ms·

The issue isn't that they're fake but that positive reviews end up hidden as 'not recommended' and negative ones suddenly float to the top once the protection m

The issue isn't that they're fake but that positive reviews end up hidden as 'not recommended' and negative ones suddenly float to the top once the protection money stops. It looks like there's manipulation of the algorithm that determines what reviews are legitimate on a per client basis. The 'free' package is pretty unforgiving, but if you pay then its tweaked more towards your favor. Nothing about this would be illegal. Its how Yelp manages their site and I believe have already won a lawsuit against this. Consumers need to be taught that Yelp isn't trustworthy. Sadly, it seems to have a Facebook-like network effect that'll be tough to beat. On the plus side Google reviews are the default on Google maps and other Google services and they seem to not play these games.

DamnInteresting 9y ago
In this case, of the three "not recommended" reviews, one is positive (four stars) and two are negative (one star). This seems contrary to the common assertion that the bad reviews are all unleashed. Though I concede that if Yelp is guilty of the accusations, they might be smart about it, and leave some negative reviews hidden. I'm just concerned that there is still no ready evidence that Yelp is doing this deliberately. I have seen no confirmed cases of hidden negative reviews suddenly being displayed after a contract is canceled, nor of previously displayed positive reviews becoming hidden, nor any compelling evidence that the negative reviews are disingenuous, nor any recorded communication from Yelp implying that paying up will improve reviews. I like assertions to be accompanied by appropriate evidence. Consider: Most business owners pour their hearts and their lives into their businesses. But no business is perfect, and they will make mistakes that upset customers. Yelp encourages criticism. It sucks to have your life's work harshly criticized. So it's miles easier for business owners to accept that the negative reviews are fraudulent.
- drzaiusapelord 9y ago
  There is no evidence because there can be no evidence. Every single time this is shown with screenshots, Yelp says the same thing: that its proprietary algorith changes all the time. They get a free copout and all of its defenders on the web just parrot that statement. Lower-ranked reviews fly to the top? Algo change. Stars suddenly missing? Algo change. Positive reviews suddenly 'not recommended' Algo change. Saw in this case and more if you care to do some legwork. http://www.grubstreet.com/2015/09/yelp-manipulates-reviews-again.html http://www.grubstreet.com/2015/09/yelp-manipulates-reviews-a... Oh and the algo is beneficial to paying customers without actually saying so. You can bullshit it anyway you like, "high CPM via our ad network or profile enhancement package means a more reputable business which means those not recommended 4 star reviews are probably true" and off you go. Or support is much more willing to work with you to get rid of 'suspicious' one and two star reviews if you call and the CRM pop-ups you have the 'gold package.'
  - DamnInteresting 9y ago
    Note: I have no love for Yelp, but I have have an unquenchable lust for evidence-based claims. Of course there can be evidence. The changed-algorithm claims merely create a slightly higher bar for the evidence to be convincing. So far, no one seems to have presented evidence that even approaches credible, all we see are unsupported claims. People have sued Yelp for these alleged extortions, and they lose due to lack of evidence to back their claims. Example: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-... Consider the math: If all businesses with positive ratings on Yelp were paying Yelp for that privilege, Yelp would be the wealthiest company on the planet. By far. Also, if this extortion were true, we'd be hearing about it from thousands of businesses, not one or two here and there. Consider the Occam: If the public's apparent perception of a business takes a dive, is it more likely that a) one company (Yelp) has been secretly, systematically extorting businesses all over the world for over a decade without being caught red-handed; or b) something happened in the business or the market that had a negative impact on the business?
    - dqv 9y ago
      >Also, if this extortion were true, we'd be hearing about it from thousands of businesses, not one or two here and there. If I'm a business, should I increase the likelihood that the public gives me bad reviews on yelp when I bring attention to this issue? >Consider the Occam: [...] That's a false dilemma. Yelp can push sales quotas upon employees without "knowing" that it's inducing them to post negative (and positive [for those who pay]) reviews. Just because they're not explicitly telling their employees to post negative/positive reviews doesn't mean that they don't do so through other means. Your either-or is the standard Yelp talking point. >without being caught red-handed Because their employees are using Yelp's whistle blowing line.
      - DamnInteresting 9y ago
        > If I'm a business, should I increase the likelihood that the public gives me bad reviews on yelp when I bring attention to this issue? How/why would customers give you more bad reviews if you could prove your business has received fraudulent bad reviews on Yelp? Those dots don't seem to sensibly connect. > Yelp can push sales quotas upon employees without "knowing" that it's inducing them to post negative (and positive [for those who pay]) reviews. Just because they're not explicitly telling their employees to post negative/positive reviews doesn't mean that they don't do so through other means. This is a good hypothesis for how it could happen; this is essentially what happened at Wells Fargo. But there's still the pesky lack of evidence for it actually happening at Yelp, where the evidence for it happening at Wells Fargo is considerable--loads of employees and ex-employees discussing it openly, tons of customer records showing accounts opened without permission, etc. That is a key difference that suggests the Yelp accusations are without much merit. It's a foregone conclusion that some Yelp employees have done manipulative things to customers over the years, and maybe it's those isolated events that spur these occasional complaints, but there's no evidence of a widespread, systemic problem. If such credible evidence materializes, I will change my view, but I'll not apologize for waiting to accept the story until compelling evidence appeared. A tiny percentage of businesses making uncorroborated claims is an absurdly low standard for evidence. > Because their employees are using Yelp's whistle blowing line. This is another bare assertion without supporting evidence. If this were the case, where are all of the exposés from former Yelp employees who were pressured to do the extorting? I probably ought not have engaged in this discussion, because I have no dog in this hunt. I should have remembered that if someone has arrived at a hard conclusion without evidence, then that is a demonstration that evidence is not important to them. I just get so exasperated when I see my peers accepting a stranger's story wholesale without a crumb of evidence. So it goes.

DamnInteresting 9y ago

In this case, of the three "not recommended" reviews, one is positive (four stars) and two are negative (one star). This seems contrary to the common assertion that the bad reviews are all unleashed. Though I concede that if Yelp is guilty of the accusations, they might be smart about it, and leave some negative reviews hidden. I'm just concerned that there is still no ready evidence that Yelp is doing this deliberately. I have seen no confirmed cases of hidden negative reviews suddenly being displayed after a contract is canceled, nor of previously displayed positive reviews becoming hidden, nor any compelling evidence that the negative reviews are disingenuous, nor any recorded communication from Yelp implying that paying up will improve reviews. I like assertions to be accompanied by appropriate evidence. Consider: Most business owners pour their hearts and their lives into their businesses. But no business is perfect, and they will make mistakes that upset customers. Yelp encourages criticism. It sucks to have your life's work harshly criticized. So it's miles easier for business owners to accept that the negative reviews are fraudulent.

drzaiusapelord 9y ago
There is no evidence because there can be no evidence. Every single time this is shown with screenshots, Yelp says the same thing: that its proprietary algorith changes all the time. They get a free copout and all of its defenders on the web just parrot that statement. Lower-ranked reviews fly to the top? Algo change. Stars suddenly missing? Algo change. Positive reviews suddenly 'not recommended' Algo change. Saw in this case and more if you care to do some legwork. http://www.grubstreet.com/2015/09/yelp-manipulates-reviews-again.html http://www.grubstreet.com/2015/09/yelp-manipulates-reviews-a... Oh and the algo is beneficial to paying customers without actually saying so. You can bullshit it anyway you like, "high CPM via our ad network or profile enhancement package means a more reputable business which means those not recommended 4 star reviews are probably true" and off you go. Or support is much more willing to work with you to get rid of 'suspicious' one and two star reviews if you call and the CRM pop-ups you have the 'gold package.'
- DamnInteresting 9y ago
  Note: I have no love for Yelp, but I have have an unquenchable lust for evidence-based claims. Of course there can be evidence. The changed-algorithm claims merely create a slightly higher bar for the evidence to be convincing. So far, no one seems to have presented evidence that even approaches credible, all we see are unsupported claims. People have sued Yelp for these alleged extortions, and they lose due to lack of evidence to back their claims. Example: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-... Consider the math: If all businesses with positive ratings on Yelp were paying Yelp for that privilege, Yelp would be the wealthiest company on the planet. By far. Also, if this extortion were true, we'd be hearing about it from thousands of businesses, not one or two here and there. Consider the Occam: If the public's apparent perception of a business takes a dive, is it more likely that a) one company (Yelp) has been secretly, systematically extorting businesses all over the world for over a decade without being caught red-handed; or b) something happened in the business or the market that had a negative impact on the business?
  - dqv 9y ago
    >Also, if this extortion were true, we'd be hearing about it from thousands of businesses, not one or two here and there. If I'm a business, should I increase the likelihood that the public gives me bad reviews on yelp when I bring attention to this issue? >Consider the Occam: [...] That's a false dilemma. Yelp can push sales quotas upon employees without "knowing" that it's inducing them to post negative (and positive [for those who pay]) reviews. Just because they're not explicitly telling their employees to post negative/positive reviews doesn't mean that they don't do so through other means. Your either-or is the standard Yelp talking point. >without being caught red-handed Because their employees are using Yelp's whistle blowing line.
    - DamnInteresting 9y ago
      > If I'm a business, should I increase the likelihood that the public gives me bad reviews on yelp when I bring attention to this issue? How/why would customers give you more bad reviews if you could prove your business has received fraudulent bad reviews on Yelp? Those dots don't seem to sensibly connect. > Yelp can push sales quotas upon employees without "knowing" that it's inducing them to post negative (and positive [for those who pay]) reviews. Just because they're not explicitly telling their employees to post negative/positive reviews doesn't mean that they don't do so through other means. This is a good hypothesis for how it could happen; this is essentially what happened at Wells Fargo. But there's still the pesky lack of evidence for it actually happening at Yelp, where the evidence for it happening at Wells Fargo is considerable--loads of employees and ex-employees discussing it openly, tons of customer records showing accounts opened without permission, etc. That is a key difference that suggests the Yelp accusations are without much merit. It's a foregone conclusion that some Yelp employees have done manipulative things to customers over the years, and maybe it's those isolated events that spur these occasional complaints, but there's no evidence of a widespread, systemic problem. If such credible evidence materializes, I will change my view, but I'll not apologize for waiting to accept the story until compelling evidence appeared. A tiny percentage of businesses making uncorroborated claims is an absurdly low standard for evidence. > Because their employees are using Yelp's whistle blowing line. This is another bare assertion without supporting evidence. If this were the case, where are all of the exposés from former Yelp employees who were pressured to do the extorting? I probably ought not have engaged in this discussion, because I have no dog in this hunt. I should have remembered that if someone has arrived at a hard conclusion without evidence, then that is a demonstration that evidence is not important to them. I just get so exasperated when I see my peers accepting a stranger's story wholesale without a crumb of evidence. So it goes.