4 ms·

> My MBA has had virtually no effect on my opportunities or employability... What HBD does well, above all else, is act as a filter." And you don't think emplo

by freyir 9y ago

> My MBA has had virtually no effect on my opportunities or employability... What HBD does well, above all else, is act as a filter." And you don't think employers realize this? You don't think this pre-screening process impacts their judgement when looking at job candidates? The top management consultancies, the top investment banks and private equity groups are full of HBS grads. You think they all would have got these jobs without going through the HBS process, networking with their peers and alumni who end up working for these same companies, interning, and getting the HBS seal of approval? You refer to yourself as an engineer. That might be why HBS didn't help your employability. But if you don't think it helped others, you're dreaming.

caminante 9y ago
>You think they all would have got these jobs without going through the HBS process...? Despite only referring to his experience, I think the extrapolation holds for most HBS grads( i.e. If they have the skills and early success trajectory to get into HBS, they could get similar offers and opportunities without an HBS stamp. Don't discount the two years' opportunity cost.)
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Is this the case? I know, for example, in law, your employability at desirable firms is directly linked to an aristocratic educational pedigree. Is there a reason this would not be in the case in business? While I'm sure potential HBS attendees could find something more valuable to do with their lives in those 2 years, would they really end up in investment banks and private equity firms? These seem like employers who are all about credentials, since there's no real way to demonstrate a propensity for gutting companies or engineering IPOs a priori, and since these groups are run on autopilot by corporate drones instead of people with a real sense of ownership or entrepreneurship (and thus, a desire to acquire and retain good talent regardless of its pedigree). In such cases, the hiring seems to become 99% about the value placed on the institution that granted the degree, and 1% about showing up in an adequately expensive suit and car.
  - caminante 9y ago
    Prestige matters in finance, too. However, a JD's not really comparable to an MBA because (a) getting the post-MBA jobs you mentioned typically require prior, relevant, gold-plated work experience (Switching into these finance sub-fields is VERY hard even for HBS MBAs.) and (b) these jobs don't require an MBA (unlike many jurisdictions that require accredited JDs). JDs typically don't have gold-plated work experience and have to rely on their law school's brand for signalling. In other words, most HBS folks who choose this high finance route already have the credentials and pedigree for the job without needing an MBA. For the rest, I recommend googling HBS job reports and re-thinking a few of your assumptions about where/how people create value at firms.
- freyir 9y ago
  > they could get similar offers and opportunities without an HBS stamp Many HBS students work as analysts at management consultancies prior to their MBA, and their employers send them to HBS before promoting them to consultant. What happens when the analyst refuses to get an MBA? The banking sector also has a recruitment funnel at the top MBA schools. While I'm sure it's possible to get your foot in the door without an Ivy League pedigree, many recruiters are focusing their attention on a handful of schools.
  - caminante 9y ago
    For consultants, think about the mechanics of getting accepted to HBS. You need a partner to give you an LOR. That speaks well for your ability to get promoted. These analysts rise without an MBA or leave for other ops. I think you're referring to a subset of FinServ (i.e. banking) with homogeneous roles aimed at MBAs. Again, if you get into HBS, you're qualified/networked without needing the MBA. The banking cohort isn't as pedigree focused as other niches within FinServ.
    - freyir 9y ago
      Maybe they would rise. In that case, why do they feel the need to do it?
DelaneyM 9y ago
> The top management consultancies, the top investment banks and private equity groups are full of HBS grads. You think they all would have got these jobs without going through the HBS process, networking with their peers and alumni who end up working for these same companies, interning, and getting the HBS seal of approval? Well yeah, absolutely. HBS is full of analysts and consultants from those firms and institutions taking a pit stop on their way to partner. I find it fascinating how many people here are eager to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm the one with firsthand experience..
- gerpsh 9y ago
  Let's take a specific example. For grad school, I went to a university with a generally well regarded MBA program, which drew on-campus recruiting from MBB. The recruiting process for MBA students was short recruiter interview -> case interviews. Non-MBA students interested in positions at MBB had it a bit different: in between the recruiter interview and the case interviews was an extremely difficult written exam designed to test the candidate's "reasoning" ability. A couple of my (pretty smart) classmates tried to prepare for these exams and eventually took them, failing miserably. They both reported that it was the hardest test they ever took. Both ended up at second-tier consulting firms. Let's get more general and rigorous. Kellogg Business School professor Lauren Rivera studies the effects of educational credentials on employment opportunity. Her research confirms that educational pedigree is the single most important factor for gaining employment in elite positions in finance, consulting, and law, with the implication that your education is an indication of your social class, and your comfort in the upper echelons of society. [Link to her work] (http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/directory/rivera_lauren.aspx#research http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/directory/rivera...) I would say it's bit ignorant to say that a Harvard MBA has no effect on employability or opportunity.
  - DelaneyM 9y ago
    Comparing MBAs' & undergrads' experiences is specious, at best. And if you're comparing other graduate students against MBAs, the recruiting process for MBB is exactly the same. (source: I did my time at McKinsey, the 'M' in MBB.) Regarding Prof. Rivera's study, I'm curious whether it attempts to separate causation & correlation. At HBS, the number of ex-MBB consultants in the program is roughly equal to the number who leave into MBB - many swap out and in, but the figures are in the same range. Does she account for that? Also, any analysis which groups JDs & MBAs together is 100% flawed. Those two may have similar prestige, but wildly different career progressions.

by freyir 9y ago

caminante 9y ago

>You think they all would have got these jobs without going through the HBS process...? Despite only referring to his experience, I think the extrapolation holds for most HBS grads( i.e. If they have the skills and early success trajectory to get into HBS, they could get similar offers and opportunities without an HBS stamp. Don't discount the two years' opportunity cost.)

cookiecaper 9y ago
Is this the case? I know, for example, in law, your employability at desirable firms is directly linked to an aristocratic educational pedigree. Is there a reason this would not be in the case in business? While I'm sure potential HBS attendees could find something more valuable to do with their lives in those 2 years, would they really end up in investment banks and private equity firms? These seem like employers who are all about credentials, since there's no real way to demonstrate a propensity for gutting companies or engineering IPOs a priori, and since these groups are run on autopilot by corporate drones instead of people with a real sense of ownership or entrepreneurship (and thus, a desire to acquire and retain good talent regardless of its pedigree). In such cases, the hiring seems to become 99% about the value placed on the institution that granted the degree, and 1% about showing up in an adequately expensive suit and car.
- caminante 9y ago
  Prestige matters in finance, too. However, a JD's not really comparable to an MBA because (a) getting the post-MBA jobs you mentioned typically require prior, relevant, gold-plated work experience (Switching into these finance sub-fields is VERY hard even for HBS MBAs.) and (b) these jobs don't require an MBA (unlike many jurisdictions that require accredited JDs). JDs typically don't have gold-plated work experience and have to rely on their law school's brand for signalling. In other words, most HBS folks who choose this high finance route already have the credentials and pedigree for the job without needing an MBA. For the rest, I recommend googling HBS job reports and re-thinking a few of your assumptions about where/how people create value at firms.
freyir 9y ago
> they could get similar offers and opportunities without an HBS stamp Many HBS students work as analysts at management consultancies prior to their MBA, and their employers send them to HBS before promoting them to consultant. What happens when the analyst refuses to get an MBA? The banking sector also has a recruitment funnel at the top MBA schools. While I'm sure it's possible to get your foot in the door without an Ivy League pedigree, many recruiters are focusing their attention on a handful of schools.
- caminante 9y ago
  For consultants, think about the mechanics of getting accepted to HBS. You need a partner to give you an LOR. That speaks well for your ability to get promoted. These analysts rise without an MBA or leave for other ops. I think you're referring to a subset of FinServ (i.e. banking) with homogeneous roles aimed at MBAs. Again, if you get into HBS, you're qualified/networked without needing the MBA. The banking cohort isn't as pedigree focused as other niches within FinServ.
  - freyir 9y ago
    Maybe they would rise. In that case, why do they feel the need to do it?

DelaneyM 9y ago

> The top management consultancies, the top investment banks and private equity groups are full of HBS grads. You think they all would have got these jobs without going through the HBS process, networking with their peers and alumni who end up working for these same companies, interning, and getting the HBS seal of approval? Well yeah, absolutely. HBS is full of analysts and consultants from those firms and institutions taking a pit stop on their way to partner. I find it fascinating how many people here are eager to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm the one with firsthand experience..

gerpsh 9y ago
Let's take a specific example. For grad school, I went to a university with a generally well regarded MBA program, which drew on-campus recruiting from MBB. The recruiting process for MBA students was short recruiter interview -> case interviews. Non-MBA students interested in positions at MBB had it a bit different: in between the recruiter interview and the case interviews was an extremely difficult written exam designed to test the candidate's "reasoning" ability. A couple of my (pretty smart) classmates tried to prepare for these exams and eventually took them, failing miserably. They both reported that it was the hardest test they ever took. Both ended up at second-tier consulting firms. Let's get more general and rigorous. Kellogg Business School professor Lauren Rivera studies the effects of educational credentials on employment opportunity. Her research confirms that educational pedigree is the single most important factor for gaining employment in elite positions in finance, consulting, and law, with the implication that your education is an indication of your social class, and your comfort in the upper echelons of society. [Link to her work] (http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/directory/rivera_lauren.aspx#research http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/directory/rivera...) I would say it's bit ignorant to say that a Harvard MBA has no effect on employability or opportunity.
- DelaneyM 9y ago
  Comparing MBAs' & undergrads' experiences is specious, at best. And if you're comparing other graduate students against MBAs, the recruiting process for MBB is exactly the same. (source: I did my time at McKinsey, the 'M' in MBB.) Regarding Prof. Rivera's study, I'm curious whether it attempts to separate causation & correlation. At HBS, the number of ex-MBB consultants in the program is roughly equal to the number who leave into MBB - many swap out and in, but the figures are in the same range. Does she account for that? Also, any analysis which groups JDs & MBAs together is 100% flawed. Those two may have similar prestige, but wildly different career progressions.