4 ms·

> You end up going into hyper-determinism, which is almost all about negating free will. You seem to think this is a bad thing. Why?

rtpg 9y ago
It's not that I think it's a bad thing, but that it's irrelevant in the context of trying to use quantum mechanics for "practical" purposes. Sure, maybe we don't have free will but I still want to figure out how to build quantum computers.
- zeven7 9y ago
  Some of us want to understand what the universe is really like. If that's uninteresting to you because you're more of a utilitarian, that's ok, but that's not the only way of approaching life on this blue planet.
  - alansammarone 9y ago
    It's not just about being a utilitarian. Science is supposed to make predictions. If it can't make a prediction that can be tested, it's not physics, it's philosophy.
SCHiM 9y ago
I've had many discussions with people who don't truly seem to grasp the concept of determinism. I think we should never accept a theory that proves everything is predetermined. If the theory is right it doesn't matter if people believe or act in accordance anyway, and everything anybody does doesn't matter. Time does not exist, nor actions and neither do people. Nothing is here or there if it is predetermined. If the theory is wrong but seems right for a while it will lead to less favourable outcomes for those who act in accordance while they actually had other options. That is if you believe in free will. I don't believe in free will (surely it's impossible) or determinism, but rather in chaos with (maybe) some reinforcement by deterministic systems (such as our brains). Our actions powered by constant rolls of the dice, at our birth, in our brains and on the surface of the sun where at this very moment photons are being released that indirectly animate all human life on earth.
- amazingman 9y ago
  "Pre"-determination is a misleading term in this context. The wave function collapsed, and the result was what it was because that's what the result was. TLDR of my opinions in this space: the cosmos is simultaneously deterministic and probabilistic. There is no free will. Nor are all things predetermined in the sense that most people use the word.
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
I would say: because a totally deterministic, nonstochastic universe becomes subject to paradox theorems about Laplace's Demon.[1] You need at least a little bit of stochasticity to make prediction and unpredictability work out. [1] -- https://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2014/08/08/laplaces-demon/ https://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2014/08/08/laplaces-demon/
- naasking 9y ago
  > You need at least a little bit of stochasticity to make prediction and unpredictability work out. There is already unpredictability in all sufficiently complex formal systems. For instance, it's unpredictable whether Turing machine T(i) will halt. Determinism is all you need!
- bryondowd 9y ago
  Most of the disproofs here don't actually seem to disprove the demon's existence, just limit it's ability to answer trick questions. "Suppose that there is a device that can predict the future. Ask that device what you will do in the evening. Without loss of generality, consider that there are only two options: (1) watch TV or (2) listen to the radio. After the device gives a response, for example, (1) watch TV, you instead listen to the radio on purpose. The device would, therefore, be wrong. No matter what the device says, we are free to choose the other option. This implies that Laplace’s demon cannot exist." This doesn't prove that the demon can't exist, just that it can't answer the question. If it knows what you will do in any case of its response, and it knows what its response will be, it knows what you will do, generally. It just can't tell you what you are going to do. Sort of a difference between being omniscient versus being omnipotent. In other words, the demon knows that its response will be X, and your actions will be Y, it's response just can't be truthful. It's all still perfectly deterministic. Free will is just a convenient illusion based on the fact that predicting the universe faster than realtime would almost certainly require more resources than the universe contains. At best, we can limit our scope for imperfect predictions based on imperfect knowledge and limited processing ability. The universe is likely deterministic, but there's no way to act on that in a meaningful way, so for the purposes of human existence, we may as well act as if we have free will.

rtpg 9y ago

It's not that I think it's a bad thing, but that it's irrelevant in the context of trying to use quantum mechanics for "practical" purposes. Sure, maybe we don't have free will but I still want to figure out how to build quantum computers.

zeven7 9y ago
Some of us want to understand what the universe is really like. If that's uninteresting to you because you're more of a utilitarian, that's ok, but that's not the only way of approaching life on this blue planet.
- alansammarone 9y ago
  It's not just about being a utilitarian. Science is supposed to make predictions. If it can't make a prediction that can be tested, it's not physics, it's philosophy.

SCHiM 9y ago

I've had many discussions with people who don't truly seem to grasp the concept of determinism. I think we should never accept a theory that proves everything is predetermined. If the theory is right it doesn't matter if people believe or act in accordance anyway, and everything anybody does doesn't matter. Time does not exist, nor actions and neither do people. Nothing is here or there if it is predetermined. If the theory is wrong but seems right for a while it will lead to less favourable outcomes for those who act in accordance while they actually had other options. That is if you believe in free will. I don't believe in free will (surely it's impossible) or determinism, but rather in chaos with (maybe) some reinforcement by deterministic systems (such as our brains). Our actions powered by constant rolls of the dice, at our birth, in our brains and on the surface of the sun where at this very moment photons are being released that indirectly animate all human life on earth.

amazingman 9y ago
"Pre"-determination is a misleading term in this context. The wave function collapsed, and the result was what it was because that's what the result was. TLDR of my opinions in this space: the cosmos is simultaneously deterministic and probabilistic. There is no free will. Nor are all things predetermined in the sense that most people use the word.

eli_gottlieb 9y ago

I would say: because a totally deterministic, nonstochastic universe becomes subject to paradox theorems about Laplace's Demon.[1] You need at least a little bit of stochasticity to make prediction and unpredictability work out. [1] -- https://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2014/08/08/laplaces-demon/ https://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2014/08/08/laplaces-demon/

naasking 9y ago
> You need at least a little bit of stochasticity to make prediction and unpredictability work out. There is already unpredictability in all sufficiently complex formal systems. For instance, it's unpredictable whether Turing machine T(i) will halt. Determinism is all you need!
bryondowd 9y ago
Most of the disproofs here don't actually seem to disprove the demon's existence, just limit it's ability to answer trick questions. "Suppose that there is a device that can predict the future. Ask that device what you will do in the evening. Without loss of generality, consider that there are only two options: (1) watch TV or (2) listen to the radio. After the device gives a response, for example, (1) watch TV, you instead listen to the radio on purpose. The device would, therefore, be wrong. No matter what the device says, we are free to choose the other option. This implies that Laplace’s demon cannot exist." This doesn't prove that the demon can't exist, just that it can't answer the question. If it knows what you will do in any case of its response, and it knows what its response will be, it knows what you will do, generally. It just can't tell you what you are going to do. Sort of a difference between being omniscient versus being omnipotent. In other words, the demon knows that its response will be X, and your actions will be Y, it's response just can't be truthful. It's all still perfectly deterministic. Free will is just a convenient illusion based on the fact that predicting the universe faster than realtime would almost certainly require more resources than the universe contains. At best, we can limit our scope for imperfect predictions based on imperfect knowledge and limited processing ability. The universe is likely deterministic, but there's no way to act on that in a meaningful way, so for the purposes of human existence, we may as well act as if we have free will.