4 ms·

> [Development] slows down... drastically if you have to push to the cloud to test what you're building. This is accidental complexity, not essential complexit

by jt2190 10y ago

> [Development] slows down... drastically if you have to push to the cloud to test what you're building. This is accidental complexity, not essential complexity: We can keep our source in the cloud and edit it there. We can move change sets between servers, not whole files. (I get it that my current process, and probably yours, rely on working locally, but that's just an artifact from a different time.) Amazon recently bought Cloud9, which is a browser-based IDE that edits remote files. [1] It's also possible to to use an old-fashioned remote-session. (It tickles me that eventually this will feel exactly like editing files in place on the production server.) [1] https://c9.io/blog/great-news/ https://c9.io/blog/great-news/

bpicolo 10y ago
> We can keep our source in the cloud and edit it there Even with this, it doesn't currently save you from code deployment for serverless functions. Editing in a remote-session doesn't help here, either. I have indeed developed via OSXFuse. That works fine (though none of the tools work quite properly together. Nothing detects file changes at the right time). There are many other issues, but remote debugging is also a massive pain point, and in my experience devs are already somewhat prone to painstakingly printline debugging where other tools would be far more efficient. (PHP is sadly kind of the best at this as an artifact of PHP debugging being generally miserable.)
dbg31415 10y ago
> I get it that my current process, and probably yours, rely on working locally, but that's just an artifact from a different time. You say this, but... it's more of situation, "Do I trust all time and experiences to date, vs. something relatively new?" Every dev has a local, with current setup. So, does ever dev need an instance of Lambda? It'll get crazy expensive to work on a team. We still need various environments for code review, QA, content entry, hardening, UAT, etc. All we're cutting out with Lambda is performance testing, right? (We trust AWS will be perfect and if it's not perfect we call them instead of trying to do anything about it ourselves.) Dev, QA, Prod... those are your three basic levels everyone is familiar with for every project. Seems like AWS just found a way to bill me for all three... Hooray! =P Said mostly tongue-in-cheek... I like the concept... but I'm hesitant to switch clients over to serverless until it's a little more mature. I pay for the cycles, right? What if one of the functions I upload to dev is just a poorly written loop? Whereas the dev would catch that on his local, now I think I have to catch it in my monthly bill... we still need tools to be able to verify the code we are putting out before it hits the cloud.
- bpicolo 10y ago
  > What if one of the functions I upload to dev is just a poorly written loop Fwiw, timeouts are at least partly a solution to this already. Seems right now you pay for invocations (at least on lambda), and lambdas are capped at 60s
  - dbg31415 10y ago
    Fair... still what about unintentional loops? I meant to update one record, but oops now I'm churning through the entire DB? A lot of tools out there are great... I think WordPress, and HubSpot, and Marketo are great for what they do... but they all have an element of "use this and you won't need a dev!" And it's just wrong. The number of just horribly setup sites and email campaigns and personalization options that were set up by non-devs that just don't work... or worse, sort of work but then break in catastrophic and unrecoverable ways... I think this number is still pretty high when people fall for the "we don't need a dev" line. Anyway I mostly dislike the title of this post... DevOps won't be going anywhere, we'll still need people who intimately know the systems and services in order to achieve enterprise-grade performance. Small businesses can dive in and think they are saving money... maybe it'll work for simplistic stuff, but realistically you'll still need technical folks for any edge case situation or scale. Another small story... once I had one hour to meet with an angel investor, a guy out in West Texas who had a bunch of oil wells. He wanted to meet at a coffee shop near his house... Bunch of pickup trucks out front, no wifi, and poor cell signal so I couldn't really use my phone hotspot. If I didn't have a local instance, "Hey sorry it's all choppy and junky, it's the connection I swear..." I wouldn't want to say that.

by jt2190 10y ago

bpicolo 10y ago

> We can keep our source in the cloud and edit it there Even with this, it doesn't currently save you from code deployment for serverless functions. Editing in a remote-session doesn't help here, either. I have indeed developed via OSXFuse. That works fine (though none of the tools work quite properly together. Nothing detects file changes at the right time). There are many other issues, but remote debugging is also a massive pain point, and in my experience devs are already somewhat prone to painstakingly printline debugging where other tools would be far more efficient. (PHP is sadly kind of the best at this as an artifact of PHP debugging being generally miserable.)

dbg31415 10y ago

> I get it that my current process, and probably yours, rely on working locally, but that's just an artifact from a different time. You say this, but... it's more of situation, "Do I trust all time and experiences to date, vs. something relatively new?" Every dev has a local, with current setup. So, does ever dev need an instance of Lambda? It'll get crazy expensive to work on a team. We still need various environments for code review, QA, content entry, hardening, UAT, etc. All we're cutting out with Lambda is performance testing, right? (We trust AWS will be perfect and if it's not perfect we call them instead of trying to do anything about it ourselves.) Dev, QA, Prod... those are your three basic levels everyone is familiar with for every project. Seems like AWS just found a way to bill me for all three... Hooray! =P Said mostly tongue-in-cheek... I like the concept... but I'm hesitant to switch clients over to serverless until it's a little more mature. I pay for the cycles, right? What if one of the functions I upload to dev is just a poorly written loop? Whereas the dev would catch that on his local, now I think I have to catch it in my monthly bill... we still need tools to be able to verify the code we are putting out before it hits the cloud.

bpicolo 10y ago
> What if one of the functions I upload to dev is just a poorly written loop Fwiw, timeouts are at least partly a solution to this already. Seems right now you pay for invocations (at least on lambda), and lambdas are capped at 60s
- dbg31415 10y ago
  Fair... still what about unintentional loops? I meant to update one record, but oops now I'm churning through the entire DB? A lot of tools out there are great... I think WordPress, and HubSpot, and Marketo are great for what they do... but they all have an element of "use this and you won't need a dev!" And it's just wrong. The number of just horribly setup sites and email campaigns and personalization options that were set up by non-devs that just don't work... or worse, sort of work but then break in catastrophic and unrecoverable ways... I think this number is still pretty high when people fall for the "we don't need a dev" line. Anyway I mostly dislike the title of this post... DevOps won't be going anywhere, we'll still need people who intimately know the systems and services in order to achieve enterprise-grade performance. Small businesses can dive in and think they are saving money... maybe it'll work for simplistic stuff, but realistically you'll still need technical folks for any edge case situation or scale. Another small story... once I had one hour to meet with an angel investor, a guy out in West Texas who had a bunch of oil wells. He wanted to meet at a coffee shop near his house... Bunch of pickup trucks out front, no wifi, and poor cell signal so I couldn't really use my phone hotspot. If I didn't have a local instance, "Hey sorry it's all choppy and junky, it's the connection I swear..." I wouldn't want to say that.