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The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41%

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the best grades or skills. Furthermore, many seem to assume that Germany somehow needs to offer this tax payer subsidized "free" university program to attract foreign students to fill shortages in the workforce. This is not the case. First, despite constant media reports saying otherwise, there is no major talent shortage expect in very few niches. Second, any EU-citizen (thats 600+ million people outside of Germany) can work in Germany without any permission required. Third, for non-EU citizens there already is a visa program (the "blue card") that allows them to work in the EU if they are qualified, e.g. have a Masters degree from their home country. In summary: German tax payers are asked to fund the education of foreigners at little to no return. Given the "free" nature of the program, it attracts rather unqualified students (or, lets say at least not the top notch). All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third-world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries.

rdtsc 9y ago
Wonder if they should have entrance exams to fix the issue? That might weed out the unqualified candidates.
- fbender 9y ago
  In many many cases, there are processes to assess a student's qualification. In general, if you don't have a German degree or did not reach a certain level, you will have to go through a vetting process – except for those studies were there are too little candidates to warrant a selection process.
yodsanklai 9y ago
> All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries. I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work. Besides, they contribute to the German economy by living there. And even if they leave, they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact.
- bmmayer1 9y ago
  > I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work Maybe, but there's also opportunity cost. That's one seat that someone isn't taking, teacher time that isn't going to someone else. > contribute to the German economy by living there Yes, but they cost the German economy by being there too. Have you done the math on the tradeoff? > they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact How? I have a fond memory for Germany after being a tourist there. Didn't need to cost the state tens of thousands in tuition dollars to do it.
  - hassancf 9y ago
    What about students back in their home country that would preferably buy German whether as an individual or as a person in charge of a business? See the example of French-educated people/elite in Africa. I think if German citizens don't like this they could just push their politicians to make the appropriate changes. There is no need to point the finger to these foreign students: just talk to your politicians.
fauigerzigerk 9y ago
>First, despite constant media reports saying otherwise, there is no major talent shortage expect in very few niches. "Shortage" is not the right frame of refrence here, because it implies a fixed-size pie. Having an educated population tends to grow the pie for everyone (on average over a longer observation period). It's not like there is a fixed number of jobs mined from the soil of each country. This sort of flawed thinking is at the core of most "immigrants are taking our jobs" sort of fears.
- biswaroop 9y ago
  >It's not like there is a fixed number of jobs mined from the soil of each country. This is so true. It applies to any system with competition. People tend to treat things like jobs and startups like natural resources, and tend to assume that competition is necessarily bad. In reality, feedback processes and strong interactions between players turn economies into highly unpredictable emergent phenomena. It's more like a flock of geese than an elementary chemical reaction. For such large systems, it's hard to tell what the Nash equilibrium is, and whether it matches with the optimum global outcome. Animals (especially humans) have evolved to cooperate well in small groups (e.g. tribes, families). Over larger scales (e.g. countries, between language families), we have a strange balance between distrust, competition, and compassion.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  I agree. I've had 10 jobs in my life, and only 2 were regular employment. There rest? I invented them. They didn't exist until I approached someone and said "This is what I can do for you".
zackmorris 9y ago
I'm concerned that comments like this are rising up in Hacker News lately. I'm not going to downvote it because it got me to write this post so has some intrinsic merit. But it strikes me as, to be blunt, unenlightened. Lots of facts but no deeper sentiment. I would argue that the last sentence, the "may sound harsh" one, is most important - that as countries and populations reach certain levels of affluence and influence in the world, that it is very much their responsibility to be examples for others and provide a beacon towards what is still possible. The United States used to do this but I'm afraid we've turned inward due to seemingly prudent arguments that ignore the spiritual nature of our existence.
- MarkMc 9y ago
  I agree with you about education and immigration - I would love to see more OECD countries adopt Germany's position on university fees and foreign admission. But I would not say it's worrying to find the opposite view as the majority opinion on HN. I want to see a diverse range of opinions expressed frankly but respectfully - and that is the tone of sparkling's comment. When I disagree with the top comment on an HN story, below it will often be a great rebuttal.
- sufiyan 9y ago
  Having seen many of my more affluent friends going abroad for Uni and just spending their time and parents money on booze and girls, there is a huge element of truth in what OP says. It is a subsidy for the rich and affluent.
dzonga 9y ago
assume life is a zero-sum game. no it's not!!

rdtsc 9y ago

Wonder if they should have entrance exams to fix the issue? That might weed out the unqualified candidates.

fbender 9y ago
In many many cases, there are processes to assess a student's qualification. In general, if you don't have a German degree or did not reach a certain level, you will have to go through a vetting process – except for those studies were there are too little candidates to warrant a selection process.

yodsanklai 9y ago

> All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries. I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work. Besides, they contribute to the German economy by living there. And even if they leave, they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact.

bmmayer1 9y ago
> I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work Maybe, but there's also opportunity cost. That's one seat that someone isn't taking, teacher time that isn't going to someone else. > contribute to the German economy by living there Yes, but they cost the German economy by being there too. Have you done the math on the tradeoff? > they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact How? I have a fond memory for Germany after being a tourist there. Didn't need to cost the state tens of thousands in tuition dollars to do it.
- hassancf 9y ago
  What about students back in their home country that would preferably buy German whether as an individual or as a person in charge of a business? See the example of French-educated people/elite in Africa. I think if German citizens don't like this they could just push their politicians to make the appropriate changes. There is no need to point the finger to these foreign students: just talk to your politicians.

fauigerzigerk 9y ago

>First, despite constant media reports saying otherwise, there is no major talent shortage expect in very few niches. "Shortage" is not the right frame of refrence here, because it implies a fixed-size pie. Having an educated population tends to grow the pie for everyone (on average over a longer observation period). It's not like there is a fixed number of jobs mined from the soil of each country. This sort of flawed thinking is at the core of most "immigrants are taking our jobs" sort of fears.

biswaroop 9y ago
>It's not like there is a fixed number of jobs mined from the soil of each country. This is so true. It applies to any system with competition. People tend to treat things like jobs and startups like natural resources, and tend to assume that competition is necessarily bad. In reality, feedback processes and strong interactions between players turn economies into highly unpredictable emergent phenomena. It's more like a flock of geese than an elementary chemical reaction. For such large systems, it's hard to tell what the Nash equilibrium is, and whether it matches with the optimum global outcome. Animals (especially humans) have evolved to cooperate well in small groups (e.g. tribes, families). Over larger scales (e.g. countries, between language families), we have a strange balance between distrust, competition, and compassion.
JoeAltmaier 9y ago
I agree. I've had 10 jobs in my life, and only 2 were regular employment. There rest? I invented them. They didn't exist until I approached someone and said "This is what I can do for you".

zackmorris 9y ago

I'm concerned that comments like this are rising up in Hacker News lately. I'm not going to downvote it because it got me to write this post so has some intrinsic merit. But it strikes me as, to be blunt, unenlightened. Lots of facts but no deeper sentiment. I would argue that the last sentence, the "may sound harsh" one, is most important - that as countries and populations reach certain levels of affluence and influence in the world, that it is very much their responsibility to be examples for others and provide a beacon towards what is still possible. The United States used to do this but I'm afraid we've turned inward due to seemingly prudent arguments that ignore the spiritual nature of our existence.

MarkMc 9y ago
I agree with you about education and immigration - I would love to see more OECD countries adopt Germany's position on university fees and foreign admission. But I would not say it's worrying to find the opposite view as the majority opinion on HN. I want to see a diverse range of opinions expressed frankly but respectfully - and that is the tone of sparkling's comment. When I disagree with the top comment on an HN story, below it will often be a great rebuttal.
sufiyan 9y ago
Having seen many of my more affluent friends going abroad for Uni and just spending their time and parents money on booze and girls, there is a huge element of truth in what OP says. It is a subsidy for the rich and affluent.

dzonga 9y ago

assume life is a zero-sum game. no it's not!!