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I'm sure rife is important, but you're way over correcting. Fish is just there to round off the rice? Please.

by sooheon 10y ago

m_mueller 10y ago
I stand by my comment. Any trained Sushi chef knows how to cut the fish properly, all they need is access to a good wholesale fish market like Tsukiji or one of its resellers to offer you some very nice fish - but the way they treat the rice is where you see the biggest difference between a trained sushi chef and a master. No matter where you go in Japan it's still way beyond what you'd get in expensive places abroad with a high likelihood though.
- sidegrid 10y ago
  How long can it take to learn how to cook rice? Couple of hours?
  - kod 10y ago
    How long can it take to learn how to make a list of things for a computer to do? Couple of days?
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamae >It is a common Japanese legend that the truly great itamae-san ("san" is an honorific suffix) should be able to create nigirizushi in which all of the rice grains face the same direction. While that's definitely an exaggeration, it gives you an idea of the importance of rice in Japanese sushi. Basically, it's taking something that's naturally chaotic (like cooked rice grains that just stick together in whatever fashion), and bring their entropy down to become something ordered by using the most efficient motions possible. For that purpose they use hand fans and wood to control the moisture as well as very finely trained hand motions to control the shape of the nigiri as well as the alignments of the grains. All of that, just so the guest can pick it up with his/her chopsticks, and have it effortlessly fall apart in the mouth, in an explosion of flavour, like a two stage guided cluster bomb targeting your taste buds ;-). So, yes, you could probably just use an automatic cooker for the cooking process (although the masters sneeze at that of course, but it sure is standard in Japan nowadays up to a certain price level) - but cooking is the easy part, the fun starts after that.
- consz 10y ago
  > Any trained Sushi chef knows how to cut the fish properly, all they need is access to a good wholesale fish market like Tsukiji This isn't a convincing argument at all, I could just as easily say "any trained sushi chef knows how to cook rice properly, all they need is Amazon and access to a good rice cooker like Zojirushi". For what it's worth, I don't believe the idea that rice is the main focus -- it just sounds like the sushi chefs are fucking with people when they say something like that.
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    There's an easy Test you can do: Go to Japan and do a few taste tests. Try 7-11 sushi, kaiten-sushi (big chains that serve on turnstiles), a small neighborhood sushi restaurant that serves lunch for 1000 yen and a master's sushi restaurant (usually 10000 yen up to 25000 yen, but you may be able to get a better deal through a Japanese contact). Then report back on what you find. All I can tell you is from my experience, and that is, for most fish the difference starts diminishing at the 1000 yen mark, but the texture of the rice and the care going into the condiments is what you pay for when going to a master. I'm not trying to have a debate, just sharing my experience from living in Japan for years.
    - sooheon 10y ago
      I guess that makes sense. The value-add of a sushi chef to good fish is almost nothing, they just have to cut it and make sure to serve it fresh. The variability the chef introduces to rice is a lot bigger (i.e. rice can be really shit if you cook it wrong), so in order for sushi to rise from its piece-of-fish-on-rice street food beginnings to cult cuisine status of today, they had to pick some part to idolize and ritualize (in typical Japanese style), and rice was it.
      - m_mueller 10y ago
        You could at it this way, yes - Sushi is a bit like Pizza in that a) it was born a few hundred years ago (Edo period) as a take-away food / fast food b) some forms of it have become a high craft or even art that you can spend a lot of money on (compare to high status Pizzerias in Napoli) Now whether that's legitimate or not is of course up for discussion - in my opinion it's a legitimate and fulfilling experience that you can have by going to a Sushi master if you can appreciate this kind of craft.
Mendenhall 10y ago
I am pretty sure parent is "right" from my limited understanding. That being having watched some interviews etc with sushi "masters" I have heard some of them say same thing. If I remember where I will respond again and apply link.
jghn 10y ago
Iirc sushi means rice in Japanese

I'm sure rife is important, but you're way over correcting. Fish is just there to round off the rice? Please.

by sooheon 10y ago

I'm sure rife is important, but you're way over correcting. Fish is just there to round off the rice? Please.

I stand by my comment. Any trained Sushi chef knows how to cut the fish properly, all they need is access to a good wholesale fish market like Tsukiji or one of its resellers to offer you some very nice fish - but the way they treat the rice is where you see the biggest difference between a trained sushi chef and a master. No matter where you go in Japan it's still way beyond what you'd get in expensive places abroad with a high likelihood though.

sidegrid 10y ago
How long can it take to learn how to cook rice? Couple of hours?
- kod 10y ago
  How long can it take to learn how to make a list of things for a computer to do? Couple of days?
- m_mueller 10y ago
  Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamae >It is a common Japanese legend that the truly great itamae-san ("san" is an honorific suffix) should be able to create nigirizushi in which all of the rice grains face the same direction. While that's definitely an exaggeration, it gives you an idea of the importance of rice in Japanese sushi. Basically, it's taking something that's naturally chaotic (like cooked rice grains that just stick together in whatever fashion), and bring their entropy down to become something ordered by using the most efficient motions possible. For that purpose they use hand fans and wood to control the moisture as well as very finely trained hand motions to control the shape of the nigiri as well as the alignments of the grains. All of that, just so the guest can pick it up with his/her chopsticks, and have it effortlessly fall apart in the mouth, in an explosion of flavour, like a two stage guided cluster bomb targeting your taste buds ;-). So, yes, you could probably just use an automatic cooker for the cooking process (although the masters sneeze at that of course, but it sure is standard in Japan nowadays up to a certain price level) - but cooking is the easy part, the fun starts after that.
consz 10y ago
> Any trained Sushi chef knows how to cut the fish properly, all they need is access to a good wholesale fish market like Tsukiji This isn't a convincing argument at all, I could just as easily say "any trained sushi chef knows how to cook rice properly, all they need is Amazon and access to a good rice cooker like Zojirushi". For what it's worth, I don't believe the idea that rice is the main focus -- it just sounds like the sushi chefs are fucking with people when they say something like that.
- m_mueller 10y ago
  There's an easy Test you can do: Go to Japan and do a few taste tests. Try 7-11 sushi, kaiten-sushi (big chains that serve on turnstiles), a small neighborhood sushi restaurant that serves lunch for 1000 yen and a master's sushi restaurant (usually 10000 yen up to 25000 yen, but you may be able to get a better deal through a Japanese contact). Then report back on what you find. All I can tell you is from my experience, and that is, for most fish the difference starts diminishing at the 1000 yen mark, but the texture of the rice and the care going into the condiments is what you pay for when going to a master. I'm not trying to have a debate, just sharing my experience from living in Japan for years.
  - sooheon 10y ago
    I guess that makes sense. The value-add of a sushi chef to good fish is almost nothing, they just have to cut it and make sure to serve it fresh. The variability the chef introduces to rice is a lot bigger (i.e. rice can be really shit if you cook it wrong), so in order for sushi to rise from its piece-of-fish-on-rice street food beginnings to cult cuisine status of today, they had to pick some part to idolize and ritualize (in typical Japanese style), and rice was it.
    - m_mueller 10y ago
      You could at it this way, yes - Sushi is a bit like Pizza in that a) it was born a few hundred years ago (Edo period) as a take-away food / fast food b) some forms of it have become a high craft or even art that you can spend a lot of money on (compare to high status Pizzerias in Napoli) Now whether that's legitimate or not is of course up for discussion - in my opinion it's a legitimate and fulfilling experience that you can have by going to a Sushi master if you can appreciate this kind of craft.

Mendenhall 10y ago

I am pretty sure parent is "right" from my limited understanding. That being having watched some interviews etc with sushi "masters" I have heard some of them say same thing. If I remember where I will respond again and apply link.

jghn 10y ago

Iirc sushi means rice in Japanese