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This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing fo

This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

ed_balls 9y ago
If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.
- discordianfish 9y ago
  Not even talking about attracting talent but retaining it. That being said, in Berlin startups you don't need to speak german. You just need to be down with working for a shitty salary at a meaningless e-commerce project or copycat that is never intended to succeed.
  - anon_7523 9y ago
    I think you are essentially confusing "tech" with "web" (granted SV mostly does the same). Go to Southern Germany, if you want tech jobs, not Berlin.
- sparkling 9y ago
  You can live and work in Berlin without speaking single word of German.
  - mafribe 9y ago
    You can, but Berlin is not (yet) where most of the interesting high-tech jobs are. Moreover, if you want an interesting social life, eventually you'll have to learn the local language, there's no way around it.
- jernfrost 9y ago
  I can't speak for Germany, but e.g. in Norway and the Netherlands which I know best, there are a lot of nice tech jobs and you don't have to speak a word of the native language. I know because I've had colleagues over a decade who don't speak the native language and who are still just fine. Most tech companies today use english as work language anyway. Not necessarily social talk among people, but usually in meetings, emails, documentation etc. Still I recommend learning the local language. It has advantages but it is not something you are completely dependent on.
  - ed_balls 9y ago
    You can survive sure, but I'd be really hard and expensive to start a company. How am I suppose to read german law and fill government forms? Have a lawyer to everything for me? Thanks no thanks.
    - fbender 9y ago
      You'll have a hard time starting a company or anything without consulting a lawyer or legal service in Germany. And you won't be taken seriously e.g. by banks etc. Fortunately, cost for legal advice on this matter is significantly less than in the US, AFAIK. Plus, you have the bonus of being able to do business in 27+ countries with marginal or no extra effort.
      - ed_balls 9y ago
        In that case I'd prefer to start a company in Poland. Much lower taxes, cost of infrastructure, legal, labour, capital requirement for LTD (25000 EUR vs 1200 EUR).
d33 9y ago
What makes this post German? It sounds convincing to me and I'm not German. Also, how would creating the jobs reduce the risk mentioned by anon_7523? Do you believe it's a bad idea to integrate the people you already provide with education, for free?
- anon_7523 9y ago
  I guess, he is talking about the mindest, that you can fix everything with rules, without fixing the underlying problem (that I don't see in this case). I would add calling something "typical German" is also typical German :)
sgift 9y ago
> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany. I've fixed it for you.
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany. This is also wrong. I would rather say "there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany if you don't know German on a decent level".
- mafribe 9y ago
  Where are those highly paid tech jobs in the UK? Apart form a bit of fin-tech in London, most programming jobs in the UK are quite badly paid and not comparable with US/SV salary levels. I see what my UK-based students are earning, and it's typically not really above German levels.
ar0 9y ago
I think you are confusing "tech companies" with "web start-ups". Germany has a different focus than Silicon Valley and thus a different type of "tech" jobs as well. There are a lot of challenging engineering and IT jobs where you will work together with top-notch colleagues in industrial automation, mechanical engineering, etc. Note that Elon Musk is still dreaming about building tunnel boring machinery, while at Herrenknecht you can already innovate in this field today.
anon_7523 9y ago
There are good tech jobs in Germany. They are not SV-level paying, but rents are also not San Francisco level and you get healthcare, pension funds and unemployment benefits. Of course it can always be better. What better than German tech jobs are there in the UK? It is not about the jobs. They are aiming for a language they already know, but want to get a free education on the way. My point is, that taxpayers should benefit from their investments. There is nothing wrong with creating a lock-in, which is silly btw.: There is a German speaking market of > 100 Mio speakers, you can benefit from. Nobody in the Philippines or India speaks German. See what kind of job opportunities Turkish-German people have in Turkey. If your point is true and there are no tech-jobs, we can benefit from it, then stop the program and work on that first. The foreign students also would, because except for 3 neighborhoods in Berlin and Frankfurt, you cannot integrate into German society without some German language knowledge and without a proper skillset. The German economy is heavily based on the Mittelstand with so called "hidden champions", one does not know about, but who are the global market leader in smaller, obscure markets. They often sit in a village somewhere in rural (but rich) Southern Germany. No way, you can make it there without German language knowledge.

ed_balls 9y ago

If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.

discordianfish 9y ago
Not even talking about attracting talent but retaining it. That being said, in Berlin startups you don't need to speak german. You just need to be down with working for a shitty salary at a meaningless e-commerce project or copycat that is never intended to succeed.
- anon_7523 9y ago
  I think you are essentially confusing "tech" with "web" (granted SV mostly does the same). Go to Southern Germany, if you want tech jobs, not Berlin.
sparkling 9y ago
You can live and work in Berlin without speaking single word of German.
- mafribe 9y ago
  You can, but Berlin is not (yet) where most of the interesting high-tech jobs are. Moreover, if you want an interesting social life, eventually you'll have to learn the local language, there's no way around it.
jernfrost 9y ago
I can't speak for Germany, but e.g. in Norway and the Netherlands which I know best, there are a lot of nice tech jobs and you don't have to speak a word of the native language. I know because I've had colleagues over a decade who don't speak the native language and who are still just fine. Most tech companies today use english as work language anyway. Not necessarily social talk among people, but usually in meetings, emails, documentation etc. Still I recommend learning the local language. It has advantages but it is not something you are completely dependent on.
- ed_balls 9y ago
  You can survive sure, but I'd be really hard and expensive to start a company. How am I suppose to read german law and fill government forms? Have a lawyer to everything for me? Thanks no thanks.
  - fbender 9y ago
    You'll have a hard time starting a company or anything without consulting a lawyer or legal service in Germany. And you won't be taken seriously e.g. by banks etc. Fortunately, cost for legal advice on this matter is significantly less than in the US, AFAIK. Plus, you have the bonus of being able to do business in 27+ countries with marginal or no extra effort.
    - ed_balls 9y ago
      In that case I'd prefer to start a company in Poland. Much lower taxes, cost of infrastructure, legal, labour, capital requirement for LTD (25000 EUR vs 1200 EUR).

d33 9y ago

What makes this post German? It sounds convincing to me and I'm not German. Also, how would creating the jobs reduce the risk mentioned by anon_7523? Do you believe it's a bad idea to integrate the people you already provide with education, for free?

anon_7523 9y ago
I guess, he is talking about the mindest, that you can fix everything with rules, without fixing the underlying problem (that I don't see in this case). I would add calling something "typical German" is also typical German :)

sgift 9y ago

> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany. I've fixed it for you.

wolfgke 9y ago
> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany. This is also wrong. I would rather say "there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany if you don't know German on a decent level".
mafribe 9y ago
Where are those highly paid tech jobs in the UK? Apart form a bit of fin-tech in London, most programming jobs in the UK are quite badly paid and not comparable with US/SV salary levels. I see what my UK-based students are earning, and it's typically not really above German levels.

ar0 9y ago

I think you are confusing "tech companies" with "web start-ups". Germany has a different focus than Silicon Valley and thus a different type of "tech" jobs as well. There are a lot of challenging engineering and IT jobs where you will work together with top-notch colleagues in industrial automation, mechanical engineering, etc. Note that Elon Musk is still dreaming about building tunnel boring machinery, while at Herrenknecht you can already innovate in this field today.

anon_7523 9y ago

There are good tech jobs in Germany. They are not SV-level paying, but rents are also not San Francisco level and you get healthcare, pension funds and unemployment benefits. Of course it can always be better. What better than German tech jobs are there in the UK? It is not about the jobs. They are aiming for a language they already know, but want to get a free education on the way. My point is, that taxpayers should benefit from their investments. There is nothing wrong with creating a lock-in, which is silly btw.: There is a German speaking market of > 100 Mio speakers, you can benefit from. Nobody in the Philippines or India speaks German. See what kind of job opportunities Turkish-German people have in Turkey. If your point is true and there are no tech-jobs, we can benefit from it, then stop the program and work on that first. The foreign students also would, because except for 3 neighborhoods in Berlin and Frankfurt, you cannot integrate into German society without some German language knowledge and without a proper skillset. The German economy is heavily based on the Mittelstand with so called "hidden champions", one does not know about, but who are the global market leader in smaller, obscure markets. They often sit in a village somewhere in rural (but rich) Southern Germany. No way, you can make it there without German language knowledge.