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That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade schools? What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the

That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade schools? What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail?

JanSt 10y ago
Yes, nearly everyone in Germany either has a university degree or a so called "Berufsausbildung". The Berufsausbildung is a specific training to do a certain kind of occupation (craftsman, computer programmer, carpenter) and is based on approximately 50% of schooling and 50% of hands-on work in a company. It typically takes three years and usually you stay at that company as a worker afterwards
- markdown 10y ago
  Interesting. Thank you.
patall 10y ago
In addition to the other comment, 73% is counting all grown up germans. The current generation has an university enrollment rate of about 50%. So while many older germans have basically been trained on the job, many younger once wont which is one of the reasons many younger foreign europeans now learn a job in germany as no inlanders apply. Tradditionally we have the concept that kids can fail a grade and have to repeat it but more and more educators are not in favor of this anymore, so its more or less changing.
- lispm 10y ago
  > The current generation has an university enrollment rate of about 50%. Enrollment does not mean that they get a degree. That's simply a different number.
wolfgke 10y ago
> do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail? Typically in Germany there is/was a three-tiered system after the 4th class: Hauptschule (5th to 9th year), Realschule (5th to 10th year) and Gymnasium (5th to 12th or 13th year). With a degree at a Hauptschule you can only begin an apprenticeship at some jobs, with a degree on a Realschule an apprenticeship in all jobs and with a Gymnasium degree (Abitur) you are allowed to study at a university or Fachhochschule ("Fachhochschule" is often translated with "school of applied science", but I think there is no real translation, since this is a very German concept: You study some applied subject (traditionally engineering) there with little focus on research question, but it is a lot more school-like than universities (few elective subjects, "more like sitting in a classroom"). This basic three-tiered system has now been convoluted (for example often "Hauptschule" and "Realschule" are often combined into a "Sekundarschule" (translating this with "secondary school" is in my opinion a false friend) or there also exist comprehensive schools that encompass all three tiers, but I think you get the basic idea. To what kind of secondary school you may go is decided on the marks in the 4th class. Now to your question: If your marks are too bad, you have to repeat a year (which reflects badly in your CV!) or (also not untypical) are "advised" to switch to a "lower tier" school. Details for these rules change all the time, but I would consider it as typical that at most one 5 (second worst mark) is allowed in a primary subject and at most two 5s are allowed in all subjects for passing. Also no 6 (worst mark) is allowed for passing. Also it is often very typical that at a Gymnasium that you have to have good marks to be allowed to attend the Oberstufe (11th to 12th or 13th year) - otherwise you only get a "Realschulabschluss/erweiterter Sekundarschulabschluss" (two different names for mostly the same concept).
- markdown 10y ago
  Sounds complicated. I can see the logic in separating kids into groups of equivalent aptitude. I wonder how they arrived at the 5th class being where the categorisation happens. I appreciate you explaining it, thank you.
  - wolfgke 10y ago

JanSt 10y ago

Yes, nearly everyone in Germany either has a university degree or a so called "Berufsausbildung". The Berufsausbildung is a specific training to do a certain kind of occupation (craftsman, computer programmer, carpenter) and is based on approximately 50% of schooling and 50% of hands-on work in a company. It typically takes three years and usually you stay at that company as a worker afterwards

markdown 10y ago
Interesting. Thank you.

patall 10y ago

In addition to the other comment, 73% is counting all grown up germans. The current generation has an university enrollment rate of about 50%. So while many older germans have basically been trained on the job, many younger once wont which is one of the reasons many younger foreign europeans now learn a job in germany as no inlanders apply. Tradditionally we have the concept that kids can fail a grade and have to repeat it but more and more educators are not in favor of this anymore, so its more or less changing.

lispm 10y ago
> The current generation has an university enrollment rate of about 50%. Enrollment does not mean that they get a degree. That's simply a different number.

wolfgke 10y ago

> do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail? Typically in Germany there is/was a three-tiered system after the 4th class: Hauptschule (5th to 9th year), Realschule (5th to 10th year) and Gymnasium (5th to 12th or 13th year). With a degree at a Hauptschule you can only begin an apprenticeship at some jobs, with a degree on a Realschule an apprenticeship in all jobs and with a Gymnasium degree (Abitur) you are allowed to study at a university or Fachhochschule ("Fachhochschule" is often translated with "school of applied science", but I think there is no real translation, since this is a very German concept: You study some applied subject (traditionally engineering) there with little focus on research question, but it is a lot more school-like than universities (few elective subjects, "more like sitting in a classroom"). This basic three-tiered system has now been convoluted (for example often "Hauptschule" and "Realschule" are often combined into a "Sekundarschule" (translating this with "secondary school" is in my opinion a false friend) or there also exist comprehensive schools that encompass all three tiers, but I think you get the basic idea. To what kind of secondary school you may go is decided on the marks in the 4th class. Now to your question: If your marks are too bad, you have to repeat a year (which reflects badly in your CV!) or (also not untypical) are "advised" to switch to a "lower tier" school. Details for these rules change all the time, but I would consider it as typical that at most one 5 (second worst mark) is allowed in a primary subject and at most two 5s are allowed in all subjects for passing. Also no 6 (worst mark) is allowed for passing. Also it is often very typical that at a Gymnasium that you have to have good marks to be allowed to attend the Oberstufe (11th to 12th or 13th year) - otherwise you only get a "Realschulabschluss/erweiterter Sekundarschulabschluss" (two different names for mostly the same concept).

markdown 10y ago
Sounds complicated. I can see the logic in separating kids into groups of equivalent aptitude. I wonder how they arrived at the 5th class being where the categorisation happens. I appreciate you explaining it, thank you.
- wolfgke 10y ago