35 ms·

I think feigned surprise is exceptionally common. Your description of it makes it seem like a very thought out or premeditated behaviour. The kind of "feigning"

by scandox 10y ago

I think feigned surprise is exceptionally common. Your description of it makes it seem like a very thought out or premeditated behaviour. The kind of "feigning" the author is referring to is a reflex behaviour. If you confronted a feigner of surprise immediately afterwards they might be genuinely unable to say truthfully if they were really surprised or just reacted with surprise to satisfy an inner desire to assert the superiority of their knowledge. Such behaviours have strong roots in childhood and often a rational adult who has it brought to their attention will easily be able to never do it again. But it really is quite common in my experience.

andreyf 10y ago
Feigned reflexive behavior? That's some sociopathic shit. > Such behaviours have strong roots in childhood and often a rational adult who has it brought to their attention will easily be able to never do it again lol! no. I do agree that this rule is encouraging people to be ever-self-conscious and overrule their social reflexes and would be more accurately called "repress surprise".
- pvg 10y ago
  People reflexively feign or exaggerate all sorts of emotions and reactions, it'd be stranger if they didn't.
  - andreyf 10y ago
    That's simply not what that word means, and tacking on exaggeration a totally different social behavior displayed by different people with different purposes. feign |fān| verb [with object] — pretend to be affected by (a feeling, state, or injury): she feigned nervousness.
    - scandox 10y ago
      The dictionary definition of a word is only its starting point. There are many levels of awareness that may be in operation when someone is said to "feign".
      - andreyf 10y ago
        Words mean things. Feigned surprise is when you pretend to be surprised but are not really.
    - pvg 10y ago
      When someone you know tells you something important to them that you're uninterested in, you typically feign interest, possibly surprise without consciously thinking about it. Similarly, you can feign surprise at someone's ignorance not because you're really surprised but to berate them. It's also often done on autopilot, which is what the rule discussed in the post is about. I'm not sure what you mean by 'that's not what the word means'. You said 'reflexive feigned surprise' is 'sociopathic'. Reflexively representing some emotional state other than the one you exactly feel is a basic aspect of the way we behave and communicate. When someone's ability to do that is impaired, it's considered a handicap.
      - andreyf 10y ago
        I consciously try to be sincere and present my emotions accurately. I think that's generally a good rule of thumb. > you can feign surprise at someone's ignorance not because you're really surprised but to berate them On point! The rule should then be "don't berate others", or the more positive "empower others". This is just one example of this rule, one that I have not personally seen come up often, but perhaps that's because I have exactly 0 interest in being around anyone who berates others.
        pvg 10y ago
        I consciously try to be sincere and present my emotions accurately. I think that's generally a good rule of thumb. This isn't about insincerity, it's simply a basic aspect of social behaviour. You don't sit on the bus crying or singing a happy song if you're sad or happy. We manage the emotions we project as second nature, just as we read and interpret the projected emotions of others. It's the opposite of sociopathic. The rule should then be "don't berate others" No, because the rule is about a specific (potentially) reflexive behaviour that can be destructive in the context they're talking about. They are trying to help people address it. "Don't berate others" is a fine sentiment but a little vague.
        andreyf 10y ago
        Not much of a singer, but I do have a propensity to whistle or hum when I'm happy! This would make sense if we were making an exhaustive list of "potentially reflexive behavior which people may engage in but should not in this community", but keeping such a list in your mind is one hell of a downer. The best rule to encompass this, I think, is "epower those around you". Noisebridge has an even broader social rule / ethos which has served them well: "be awesome to each other". Love the community at Recurse, but having social rules be a list of shitty things someone once did is the least awesome part of Recurse :-)
- scandox 10y ago
  I don't think one needs to be a sociopath to lie or pretend automatically. I believe we all do it all the time, as a very necessary social mechanism. There are all kinds of delusions we participate in together so that we can tolerate one another.
  - andreyf 10y ago
    So by "feigned reflex" you mean "lying or pretending automatically"? What you are describing has nothing to do with being surprised that someone is, e.g. trying to write a bitcoin client without understanding what a socket or IP address is. I love Recurse, but the social rules are like padded corners for folks who need help that Recurse isn't equipped to provide, not something to take life lessons from. Every good team has junior folks who, by comparison, really simply just don't know jack shit about technology. Every single person came into this world without knowing anything and they need to feel like they belong as much as folks with 40 years of experience fiddling bits. The root issue here is folks coming out of psychologically traumatizing competitive conditioning. You don't see any montessori kids complaining about anyone being surprised they're doing something without knowing a prerequisite.
kurthr 10y ago
What I find strange about your argument is that "a feigner of surprise immediately afterwards they might be genuinely unable to say truthfully if they were really surprised or just reacted with surprise to satisfy an inner desire", implies that you don't believe you can know whether others are feigning surprise or even really yourself! The best argument you have, from your experience, is that you often feign surprise, which I find a bit damning, if you then ascribe that behavior to others. I can't remember feigning surprise, but I definitely remember being horrified at being forced to argue about something rather elementary. If it doesn't affect me directly, I'm more likely to simply ignore the person's argument and go my way. edit: to be clear I get no satisfaction in seeing other people make obvious mistakes... it's almost physically painful.
- scandox 10y ago
  Well I don't think people have as much "clean" access to their own behaviour and thoughts, as is generally thought. By thinking about our thoughts, we alter them. So that's why no-one can be crystal clear about their own motivations. I don't confess to feigning surprise in my comment. I believe it is very common, purely from observation of others - especially children and young adults.
  - kurthr 10y ago
    OK, you don't apply Bayesian priors to other's behavior based on your own internal knowledge. I'm not sure why you have much confidence in the analysis, then. See the second argument of chroma.
    - scandox 10y ago
      What's a Bayesian prior?
      - StavrosK 10y ago
        I guess they mean "how likely it is that they know something just because you know it".
chroma 10y ago
I disagree with your belief that feigned surprise is common, but I don't want to get wrapped around that axle so I'll take another route. If what you call "feigned surprise" is a reflexive, unconscious behavior, then: 1. How can it be feigning/pretend? Perhaps it's not a habit one wishes to cultivate, but it's not fake. 2. How can we hold people morally responsible for it? It seems ill-advised to judge people for behaviors outside of their conscious control. After more reflection, I find my disagreement with the original post has increased. As I said originally, I think it's wrong to feign a reaction when others expect sincerity. If anything, the post pushes people to conceal their genuine reaction and consciously feign lack-of-surprise. I would much rather help people avoid misinterpreting a sincere response than compel people to conceal their sincere beliefs.
- magicalist 10y ago
  A reaction can be quick enough to feel instinctual but still be an affectation. Just because a person has said "uh" to fill pauses in speech so often that it feels like it comes without thought doesn't mean it's a behavior outside of their concious control...it just means it's going to take some practice to stop doing it. And that's probably a good analogy because you seem to be reading some persecuting motives here. "Here's an easy viewpoint shift that, with practice, can help you be less alienating/condescending to some people" is not at all equivalent to "you're a bad person for this thing you have no control over".

by scandox 10y ago

andreyf 10y ago

Feigned reflexive behavior? That's some sociopathic shit. > Such behaviours have strong roots in childhood and often a rational adult who has it brought to their attention will easily be able to never do it again lol! no. I do agree that this rule is encouraging people to be ever-self-conscious and overrule their social reflexes and would be more accurately called "repress surprise".

pvg 10y ago
People reflexively feign or exaggerate all sorts of emotions and reactions, it'd be stranger if they didn't.
- andreyf 10y ago
  That's simply not what that word means, and tacking on exaggeration a totally different social behavior displayed by different people with different purposes. feign |fān| verb [with object] — pretend to be affected by (a feeling, state, or injury): she feigned nervousness.
  - scandox 10y ago
    The dictionary definition of a word is only its starting point. There are many levels of awareness that may be in operation when someone is said to "feign".
    - andreyf 10y ago
      Words mean things. Feigned surprise is when you pretend to be surprised but are not really.
  - pvg 10y ago
    When someone you know tells you something important to them that you're uninterested in, you typically feign interest, possibly surprise without consciously thinking about it. Similarly, you can feign surprise at someone's ignorance not because you're really surprised but to berate them. It's also often done on autopilot, which is what the rule discussed in the post is about. I'm not sure what you mean by 'that's not what the word means'. You said 'reflexive feigned surprise' is 'sociopathic'. Reflexively representing some emotional state other than the one you exactly feel is a basic aspect of the way we behave and communicate. When someone's ability to do that is impaired, it's considered a handicap.
    - andreyf 10y ago
      I consciously try to be sincere and present my emotions accurately. I think that's generally a good rule of thumb. > you can feign surprise at someone's ignorance not because you're really surprised but to berate them On point! The rule should then be "don't berate others", or the more positive "empower others". This is just one example of this rule, one that I have not personally seen come up often, but perhaps that's because I have exactly 0 interest in being around anyone who berates others.
      - pvg 10y ago
        I consciously try to be sincere and present my emotions accurately. I think that's generally a good rule of thumb. This isn't about insincerity, it's simply a basic aspect of social behaviour. You don't sit on the bus crying or singing a happy song if you're sad or happy. We manage the emotions we project as second nature, just as we read and interpret the projected emotions of others. It's the opposite of sociopathic. The rule should then be "don't berate others" No, because the rule is about a specific (potentially) reflexive behaviour that can be destructive in the context they're talking about. They are trying to help people address it. "Don't berate others" is a fine sentiment but a little vague.
        andreyf 10y ago
        Not much of a singer, but I do have a propensity to whistle or hum when I'm happy! This would make sense if we were making an exhaustive list of "potentially reflexive behavior which people may engage in but should not in this community", but keeping such a list in your mind is one hell of a downer. The best rule to encompass this, I think, is "epower those around you". Noisebridge has an even broader social rule / ethos which has served them well: "be awesome to each other". Love the community at Recurse, but having social rules be a list of shitty things someone once did is the least awesome part of Recurse :-)
scandox 10y ago
I don't think one needs to be a sociopath to lie or pretend automatically. I believe we all do it all the time, as a very necessary social mechanism. There are all kinds of delusions we participate in together so that we can tolerate one another.
- andreyf 10y ago
  So by "feigned reflex" you mean "lying or pretending automatically"? What you are describing has nothing to do with being surprised that someone is, e.g. trying to write a bitcoin client without understanding what a socket or IP address is. I love Recurse, but the social rules are like padded corners for folks who need help that Recurse isn't equipped to provide, not something to take life lessons from. Every good team has junior folks who, by comparison, really simply just don't know jack shit about technology. Every single person came into this world without knowing anything and they need to feel like they belong as much as folks with 40 years of experience fiddling bits. The root issue here is folks coming out of psychologically traumatizing competitive conditioning. You don't see any montessori kids complaining about anyone being surprised they're doing something without knowing a prerequisite.

kurthr 10y ago

What I find strange about your argument is that "a feigner of surprise immediately afterwards they might be genuinely unable to say truthfully if they were really surprised or just reacted with surprise to satisfy an inner desire", implies that you don't believe you can know whether others are feigning surprise or even really yourself! The best argument you have, from your experience, is that you often feign surprise, which I find a bit damning, if you then ascribe that behavior to others. I can't remember feigning surprise, but I definitely remember being horrified at being forced to argue about something rather elementary. If it doesn't affect me directly, I'm more likely to simply ignore the person's argument and go my way. edit: to be clear I get no satisfaction in seeing other people make obvious mistakes... it's almost physically painful.

scandox 10y ago
Well I don't think people have as much "clean" access to their own behaviour and thoughts, as is generally thought. By thinking about our thoughts, we alter them. So that's why no-one can be crystal clear about their own motivations. I don't confess to feigning surprise in my comment. I believe it is very common, purely from observation of others - especially children and young adults.
- kurthr 10y ago
  OK, you don't apply Bayesian priors to other's behavior based on your own internal knowledge. I'm not sure why you have much confidence in the analysis, then. See the second argument of chroma.
  - scandox 10y ago
    What's a Bayesian prior?
    - StavrosK 10y ago
      I guess they mean "how likely it is that they know something just because you know it".

chroma 10y ago

I disagree with your belief that feigned surprise is common, but I don't want to get wrapped around that axle so I'll take another route. If what you call "feigned surprise" is a reflexive, unconscious behavior, then: 1. How can it be feigning/pretend? Perhaps it's not a habit one wishes to cultivate, but it's not fake. 2. How can we hold people morally responsible for it? It seems ill-advised to judge people for behaviors outside of their conscious control. After more reflection, I find my disagreement with the original post has increased. As I said originally, I think it's wrong to feign a reaction when others expect sincerity. If anything, the post pushes people to conceal their genuine reaction and consciously feign lack-of-surprise. I would much rather help people avoid misinterpreting a sincere response than compel people to conceal their sincere beliefs.

magicalist 10y ago
A reaction can be quick enough to feel instinctual but still be an affectation. Just because a person has said "uh" to fill pauses in speech so often that it feels like it comes without thought doesn't mean it's a behavior outside of their concious control...it just means it's going to take some practice to stop doing it. And that's probably a good analogy because you seem to be reading some persecuting motives here. "Here's an easy viewpoint shift that, with practice, can help you be less alienating/condescending to some people" is not at all equivalent to "you're a bad person for this thing you have no control over".