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Another possible reason - they may well have little choice! Lists of top ranked universities are generally dominated by the US/UK. In this list the highest ran

Another possible reason - they may well have little choice! Lists of top ranked universities are generally dominated by the US/UK. In this list the highest ranked German institution is at number 30: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... It's always going to be hard to charge the same as a competitor when your product is inferior.

revelation 9y ago
Test your hypothesis then, look up tuition for the top 100 on that list and check if there is a clear gradient. Hint: there isn't.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  Here's a test - ask a Chinese person thats in the market for a foreign degree to name a UK or US university they would like to attend, then ask them to name a German university that's on their list. I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. I went to a UK university that's in the global top 10. Asians I met after uni would often ask where I studied and had always heard of it.
  - pg314 9y ago
    > I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. You are wrong. In 2015, 30.000 Chinese students were studying at German higher education institutions [1]. That would obviously not be the case if they would never consider studying at a German university. It is true that the US (about 300.000 students [2]) and the UK (about 90.000 students [3]) are more popular. [1] https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chinese-students-top-30000/ https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chine... [2] http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-education-chinese-students-university/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-educat... [3] https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-colleges--schools/Policy-research--statistics/Research--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/ https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-col...
  - jernfrost 9y ago
    The Chinese are obsessed with status though, in all manners of life. They want their Gucci bags and an Ivy league degree. This only matters is a status obsessed society. If instead you care about enjoying your time and getting a good education, you would chose different.
cylinder 9y ago
You can't really think the instruction at these institutions is inferior. US are masters of hype and marketing and UK are masters of prestige.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  I'm just going by the rankings. There are several of these lists, and the overall picture is pretty similar - the best universities are judged to be US/UK, with the odd sprinkling of European/Asian in the top ranks.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    Most of these rankings do not directly measure quality of instruction (because that would be difficult), and rely on proxies instead. E.g. https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/methodology-world-university-rankings-2016-2017 https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... shows that 33% of the ranking are determined by reputation, which gives universities in English speaking countries an advantage by way of availability.
  - Boothroid 9y ago
    ITT: butthurt germans
yardie 9y ago
Most of the top universities in the US are effectively free. The pool of students they get to choose from would enter with a basket of scholarship money to the point they wouldn't have to pay. The other group is so wealthy the price of tuition is the cost of a new luxury car, every year. Effectively a single percentage expense. Germany doesn't have to make their schools to compete free because the schools they compete against are basically free to the type of students they are pursuing.
- baybal2 9y ago
  I see you contradict the very point you are trying to convey there, or I am misunderstanding you
- Boothroid 9y ago
  I seriously doubt the average Ivy League/Oxbridge aspirant would ever consider a Germany university as an alternative. Below these few elite universities you have another upper tier which in the UK would be Imperial/UCL/Durham etc. (although some departments in this supposedly lower tier are superior to the top tier). Below that you have another tier, and looking at this tier in the global rankings you are starting to see some German universities crop up. Basically, and I'm not looking to be offensive, but with these universities your market is by definition the more mediocre students, and it is in this group that I think you would start to find students for whom price is more of a priority than quality. Students at the better than average universities expect their degree to deliver a premium that will easily wipe out the cost.
  - fkistner 9y ago
    I think there is a fault in your argument. Not all students, use global rankings to make up their minds. It's a matter of perspective. I am fairly confident that most top 5% European students have not considered applying to an Ivy League school or any American university for that matter. Your claim that German universities mainly attract mediocre students is completely unfounded.
  - thesumofall 9y ago
    Just because some students don't aspire to go to a German university doesn't mean the quality of education would be any worse. Many of my close friends (and me personally as well) did their undergrad in Germany and then a semester abroad and/or their Master's in top-10 universities in the US. I have yet to hear from anyone that they felt in any way more challenged in the US (typically the opposite). Yes studying in the US is great fun compared to Germany (sports, extracurriculars, nice spirit of community, ...) but in terms of learning I doubt there is much of a difference
kuschku 9y ago
That’s not really true. The big issue is that these university rankings are based almost exclusively on intra-university research. Generally said, Germany does NOT do University research. Universities become members of research organizations, where many universities cooperate on some kinds of research, but basically all the research is done within of these organizations. Which means it’s not counted in university ranking. - mp3, developed at Fraunhofer Institute, does not count for the university ranking of any of the universities the researchers work at. - Wendelstein 7-X, a milestone in Fusion research at the university of Greifswald, does not count for the University of Greifswald. Neither do any papers published about them. That’s the big issue of the university rankings.
tmalsburg2 9y ago
Top-ranked universities are outliers by definition. The average American university is probably as good or bad as the average German university and yet their tuitions are similar as for top-ranked universities and certainly higher than for any German university.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  Are you going to offer any evidence?
qznc 9y ago
The budget of top US universities is at least an order of magnitude higher than the top german universities. I doubt that tuition is the biggest factor though. Donations from alumni is more important. In the US loyalty to your alma mater is cultural. In Germany it is not. The biggest donation ever was 200M€ from an SAP founder [0]. Even two digits are noteworthy in general. [0] http://spon.de/acq9Z http://spon.de/acq9Z
jernfrost 9y ago
Ranking has nothing to do with quality of education. It is bullshit. Studies show they don't improve your grades, results or earning potential. They just look good on paper because they do creaming. They got the best research professors and students clustering there which makes their results look good. But what matters is how much of an improvement does an ivy league mean to a student compared to going to an average ranked university. Turns out it makes no difference. In some cases it actually makes your grades worse. E.g. if you are at the lower tier of a ivy, then it will kill your self esteem and motivation being around so many smart people, that studies show you will perform worse. Ivy's are like useless luxury products, like a Gucci bag. It is for show off. No wonder asians are so obsessed with university rankings. They are also obsessed with luxury products. That is because those are societies obsessed about showing status and accomplishments. If OTOH you don't care about superfluous things you don't need an ivy. I've seen how going for Ivy stuff can screw up people. Being around all these bright people, can create an insane expectation on yourself, and if you don't live up to that afterwards, it can haunt you for the rest of your life. Many people would have simply been happier individuals if they dropped the Ivy's altogether.

revelation 9y ago

Test your hypothesis then, look up tuition for the top 100 on that list and check if there is a clear gradient. Hint: there isn't.

Boothroid 9y ago
Here's a test - ask a Chinese person thats in the market for a foreign degree to name a UK or US university they would like to attend, then ask them to name a German university that's on their list. I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. I went to a UK university that's in the global top 10. Asians I met after uni would often ask where I studied and had always heard of it.
- pg314 9y ago
  > I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. You are wrong. In 2015, 30.000 Chinese students were studying at German higher education institutions [1]. That would obviously not be the case if they would never consider studying at a German university. It is true that the US (about 300.000 students [2]) and the UK (about 90.000 students [3]) are more popular. [1] https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chinese-students-top-30000/ https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chine... [2] http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-education-chinese-students-university/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-educat... [3] https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-colleges--schools/Policy-research--statistics/Research--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/ https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-col...
- jernfrost 9y ago
  The Chinese are obsessed with status though, in all manners of life. They want their Gucci bags and an Ivy league degree. This only matters is a status obsessed society. If instead you care about enjoying your time and getting a good education, you would chose different.

cylinder 9y ago

You can't really think the instruction at these institutions is inferior. US are masters of hype and marketing and UK are masters of prestige.

Boothroid 9y ago
I'm just going by the rankings. There are several of these lists, and the overall picture is pretty similar - the best universities are judged to be US/UK, with the odd sprinkling of European/Asian in the top ranks.
- yorwba 9y ago
  Most of these rankings do not directly measure quality of instruction (because that would be difficult), and rely on proxies instead. E.g. https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/methodology-world-university-rankings-2016-2017 https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... shows that 33% of the ranking are determined by reputation, which gives universities in English speaking countries an advantage by way of availability.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  ITT: butthurt germans

yardie 9y ago

Most of the top universities in the US are effectively free. The pool of students they get to choose from would enter with a basket of scholarship money to the point they wouldn't have to pay. The other group is so wealthy the price of tuition is the cost of a new luxury car, every year. Effectively a single percentage expense. Germany doesn't have to make their schools to compete free because the schools they compete against are basically free to the type of students they are pursuing.

baybal2 9y ago
I see you contradict the very point you are trying to convey there, or I am misunderstanding you
Boothroid 9y ago
I seriously doubt the average Ivy League/Oxbridge aspirant would ever consider a Germany university as an alternative. Below these few elite universities you have another upper tier which in the UK would be Imperial/UCL/Durham etc. (although some departments in this supposedly lower tier are superior to the top tier). Below that you have another tier, and looking at this tier in the global rankings you are starting to see some German universities crop up. Basically, and I'm not looking to be offensive, but with these universities your market is by definition the more mediocre students, and it is in this group that I think you would start to find students for whom price is more of a priority than quality. Students at the better than average universities expect their degree to deliver a premium that will easily wipe out the cost.
- fkistner 9y ago
  I think there is a fault in your argument. Not all students, use global rankings to make up their minds. It's a matter of perspective. I am fairly confident that most top 5% European students have not considered applying to an Ivy League school or any American university for that matter. Your claim that German universities mainly attract mediocre students is completely unfounded.
- thesumofall 9y ago
  Just because some students don't aspire to go to a German university doesn't mean the quality of education would be any worse. Many of my close friends (and me personally as well) did their undergrad in Germany and then a semester abroad and/or their Master's in top-10 universities in the US. I have yet to hear from anyone that they felt in any way more challenged in the US (typically the opposite). Yes studying in the US is great fun compared to Germany (sports, extracurriculars, nice spirit of community, ...) but in terms of learning I doubt there is much of a difference

kuschku 9y ago

That’s not really true. The big issue is that these university rankings are based almost exclusively on intra-university research. Generally said, Germany does NOT do University research. Universities become members of research organizations, where many universities cooperate on some kinds of research, but basically all the research is done within of these organizations. Which means it’s not counted in university ranking. - mp3, developed at Fraunhofer Institute, does not count for the university ranking of any of the universities the researchers work at. - Wendelstein 7-X, a milestone in Fusion research at the university of Greifswald, does not count for the University of Greifswald. Neither do any papers published about them. That’s the big issue of the university rankings.

tmalsburg2 9y ago

Top-ranked universities are outliers by definition. The average American university is probably as good or bad as the average German university and yet their tuitions are similar as for top-ranked universities and certainly higher than for any German university.

Boothroid 9y ago
Are you going to offer any evidence?

qznc 9y ago

The budget of top US universities is at least an order of magnitude higher than the top german universities. I doubt that tuition is the biggest factor though. Donations from alumni is more important. In the US loyalty to your alma mater is cultural. In Germany it is not. The biggest donation ever was 200M€ from an SAP founder [0]. Even two digits are noteworthy in general. [0] http://spon.de/acq9Z http://spon.de/acq9Z

jernfrost 9y ago

Ranking has nothing to do with quality of education. It is bullshit. Studies show they don't improve your grades, results or earning potential. They just look good on paper because they do creaming. They got the best research professors and students clustering there which makes their results look good. But what matters is how much of an improvement does an ivy league mean to a student compared to going to an average ranked university. Turns out it makes no difference. In some cases it actually makes your grades worse. E.g. if you are at the lower tier of a ivy, then it will kill your self esteem and motivation being around so many smart people, that studies show you will perform worse. Ivy's are like useless luxury products, like a Gucci bag. It is for show off. No wonder asians are so obsessed with university rankings. They are also obsessed with luxury products. That is because those are societies obsessed about showing status and accomplishments. If OTOH you don't care about superfluous things you don't need an ivy. I've seen how going for Ivy stuff can screw up people. Being around all these bright people, can create an insane expectation on yourself, and if you don't live up to that afterwards, it can haunt you for the rest of your life. Many people would have simply been happier individuals if they dropped the Ivy's altogether.